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Author Topic:   Just What is (and what is wrong with) Political Correctness?
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 80 of 302 (342163)
08-21-2006 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Omnivorous
08-21-2006 8:44 PM


According to Wiki, we all have a peg to hang a hat on. The first usage is purportedly the SCOTUS in 1793. Since about 1980, the right has used it as a ridiculing club.
I was going to link to that Wiki article. Although there are recorded uses going back to to 1793 they are not using it with the contemporary meaning.
From Wiki:
The contemporary use of the term political correctness is said to derived from Marxist-Leninist vocabulary to describe the Party Line. [1]
[1] Ellis, Frank (2004). Political correctness and the theoretical struggle. Auckland: Maxim Institute.
It goes on:
The term was transformed and used jokingly within the Left by the early 1980s, possibly earlier. [citation needed] In this context, the phrase was applied to either an over-commitment to various left-wing political causes, especially within Marxism or the feminist movement; or to a tendency by some of those dedicated to these causes to be more concerned with rhetoric and vocabulary than with substance.
The term again became popular in the early 1990s as part of a conservative challenge to curriculum and teaching methods on college campuses in the United States (D'Souza 1991; Berman 1992; Schultz 1993; Messer Davidow 1993, 1994; Scatamburlo 1998).
As you say, everyone has a peg to hang a hat on.
Although I still haven't worked out why the etymology of the term is so important to people.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Omnivorous, posted 08-21-2006 8:44 PM Omnivorous has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 86 of 302 (342171)
08-21-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by nator
08-21-2006 8:52 PM


Robin, do you feel oppressed to the de-gendering of words, like using "chair" or "chairperson" instead of "chairman", "mail carrier" instead of "mail man", "police officer" instead of "police man", or "flight attendant" instead of "stewardess"?
Well the ones that end in 'man' bring up an interesting point. There are strong (so I've seen on TV at any rate ) etymological arguments that the usage of -man as a postfix does not strictly denote male.
In Old English man is genderless - it means person or human being (see page 4 of this paper):
In Early English MAN was gender neutral. For indicating a particular gender it had to be marked with a gender noun
[Examples removed]
MAN was also used in such indefinite expressions as no man, any man and every man, in which it was gradually replaced by one or body in Middle and Early Modern English when the meaning of MAN as referring to a ”human being of male sex’ gained more currency than the parallel neutral meaning ”human being’ (see Raumolin-Brunberg and Kahlas-Tarkka 1997: 72-73).
As the second element in compound nouns, -MAN seems to have been well on the way to developing into a gender-neutral suffix, with its vowel weakening into a schwa. This is said to happen particularly in combinations of type 1a (fireman, etc.), which indicate a member of a specific professional group and which are said to be very productive (Quirk et al. 1986: 1574). This applies particularly to combinations of early origin which have become more established. As a suffix, -MAN would have rivalled other agent suffixes of native and foreign origin (-er, -or, -ist, etc.), cf. in combinations with a native N1 (fishman vs. fisher, etc.).
The development was halted when the feminist movement started to pay extra attention to the masculinity of the element -MAN around the middle of the 20th century. This movement has been occupied particularly with trying to establish female counterparts and gender-neutral equivalents to MAN-compounds. Some of these, both earnest and jocular, are listed in Table 2, as given by Beard and Cerf for American English.
The drive to remove -man indicates ignorance of the history of the language.
"flight attendant" instead of "stewardess"
I'm perfectly happy with flight attendant - but I'm equally happy with steward and stewardess. Just as I'm happy with host and hostess or husband and wife to differentiate the gender of equal roles in a more social context.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 08-21-2006 8:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 08-21-2006 10:54 PM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 3:47 AM MangyTiger has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 210 of 302 (342459)
08-22-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by nator
08-22-2006 8:04 AM


We don't use 'guys' so much over here but my experience of living in the Mid-West and Central Texas was that it was both male-specific and gender-neutral.
In your example I would take it to mean exclusively male - however it was commonplace for a mixed gender group of us to be greeted with 'Hey guys' when someone else joined us.
Similarly people would say something like 'I'm meeting a group of the guys after work for a quick beer - want to come along?' - in this context the group could as easily be mixed gender as not.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by nator, posted 08-22-2006 8:04 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 08-22-2006 7:27 PM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 230 by nator, posted 08-22-2006 9:40 PM MangyTiger has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 211 of 302 (342460)
08-22-2006 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nator
08-21-2006 10:54 PM


So am I, but calling a female law enforcement offical a "policeman" is ignoring the modern meaning of "man".
She's not a man as we use the word today.
I beg to differ.
She's not a man as you use the word today. I, along with others, are perfectly content to use the -man suffix in a gender-neutral way.
Actually in the case of the police force policemen and policewoman have historically been used to differentiate based on gender, so I wouldn't call a policewoman a policeman - but other terms such as 'chairman' carry no gender connotation as far as I am concerned.
It's completely inconsistent - but what can I say, that's what English is like (both native and American ).

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 08-21-2006 10:54 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 254 of 302 (342601)
08-23-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by ringo
08-22-2006 7:27 PM


Quite so.
Perhaps the best way to sum it up is that the meaning of 'guys' is context sensitive.

Oops! Wrong Planet

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6384 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 258 of 302 (342619)
08-23-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by nator
08-22-2006 9:40 PM


"Man" and "guy", and "he" are not gender neutral terms, regardless of how either of them were used in the past.
The idea that "man" as a standalone word or "he" or even "guy" are gender neutral is not only laughable it's a strawman.
If you read back through my posts you will find (I hope!) that I have never said any of these are gender neutral, so I don't see why you said this. From what I have observed of your posting record here I wouldn't expect you to put words into other people's mouths, so maybe I just haven't been explaining myself very well.
What I have said is:
  • The Old English origin of the word man was gender neutral
  • Guys can be both gender-neutral and specifically male
  • The suffix -man in modern English can be gender neutral in words such as Chairman
  • There is no consistency in whether -man is gender-specific or neutral in usage
As for the test:
In 1972, two sociologists at Drake University, Joseph Schneider and Sally Hacker, decided to test the hypothesis that man is generally understood to embrace woman.
Well good for them - except I don't know where they would have got the idea that man is generally understood to embrace woman. All I've ever said is that the suffix -man can be gender-neutral (chairman) - but it can also be gender-specific (policeman). The standalone word man almost always means male - the only exception I can think of is in phrases like "help your fellow man".
Half the students were assigned chapter headings like ``Social Man'', ``Industrial Man'', and ``Political Man''.
Analysis of the pictures selected revealed that in the minds of students of both sexes use of the word man evoked, to a statistically significant degree, images of males only
I'm actually astonished it wasn't nearly 100% - like I say, usage of the standalone word man (as opposed to the -man suffix) almost always means male.
The authors concluded, `This is rather convincing evidence that when you use the word man generically, people do tend to think male, and tend not to think female.
Well no shit Sherlock, they needed to do a test to find this out!? I could have saved them the money and just told them that's what they would find.
Drake University
Was that Drake in Des Moines?
I used to live about 60 miles from there - which in Iowa is virtually next door. Nothing but corn fields and dead skunks between us

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
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