Fossil sorting for simple

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One experiment Walt talks about at a university tells us how a "dead bird, mammal, reptile, and amphibian were placed in an open water tank. Their bouyancy in the days following death depended on their density while living, the built up gasses in their decaying bodies, and other factors...This order of relative bouyancy correlates closely with "the evolutionary order" ..."

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What is the bouyancy of a T. rex? What is the bouyancy of a trilobite? How about this, what is the bouyancy of a C. megalodon, a pre-historic 75 foot shark, compared to its teeth. C. megalodon on left and white shark tooth on right.It shed its teeth, which readily fossilized. If this shark was around before the flood, then its teeth should be seen in the earliest sediments. However, they are not. In fact, C. megalodon teeth are only found in the same strata as C. megalodon fossilized jaws are found, seen below. So, according to you, the bouyancy of bloated sharks is the same for the bouyancy of shark teeth. Very strange and just not true.

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I don't know. .. but what if there used to be a lot more fern than grass, and most of the grass we now find was post flood? Would that work?

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Nope. The only way it would work is if grasses were created during the end/middle of the flood, with their pollen, and somehow found their way to the correct strata. If both were around at the same time, and density, size, and habitat were the deciding factors, they should be in the same strata. We find fern pollen with dinosaur fossils, but not grass pollen. You might as well say that grass pollen was afraid of dinosaurs and moved its way up in the sediments out of fear. The Fear theory is as proven as liquifaction.

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I see where you're going with this, intersesting conjecture. I think there was fish, since they could swim, can you see how they may not have drowned right away, lest they were in violence?
So what's the problem why some were forced to 'give up'?
  —simple

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Mssg #45 please:
http://EvC Forum: Fossil sorting for simple -->EvC Forum: Fossil sorting for simpleExplain to me why there are not shed C. megalodon teeth in the bottom most layers. Why are these large shed shark teeth only found in the same layers as the fish who shed them?

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You are probably already aware of the creationist penchant for addressing specific problems with ad-hoc solutions, ignoring the big picture, and winding up contradicting themselves.

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Yes, I am very aware. Perhaps simple could refute my Fear theory, in that grass pollen was afraid of dying dinosaurs so the pollen worked its way up the sediments towards fresh air. It has just as much support in evidence (ie grass pollen above dinosaurs).

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Apparently this particular shark didn't get mucked in 'first' layers, At least from what you have been able to find of the teeth so far! Why, should it have drowned you feel sooner?

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You aren't getting it yet. It sheds it teeth. Those teeth fall to the bottom of the sea floor where they are fossilized. If fish were around since the beginning, why aren't those teeth found with the earliest life? Why are they only found in the same layer as the huge fossilized fish jaw?

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Apparently [hydraulic sorting] seems to have worked pretty good. But seems there's lots of variation in the 'very clear structure' on the planet, as one would expect! Out of place fossils, polystrate tree fossils, and all sorts of variety. The trick is to figure out the best of your limited ability, what processes were at work in the flood, like Walt.

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Walt's theory is what we call ad hoc. It means that a situation is given a special theory to fit just that situation. Not only that, but an ad hoc hypothesis is usually made to do away with counter evidence and is inherently unrepeatable. A quick example of another ad hoc hypothesis from the Skeptic's Dictionary (found here): "ESP researchers have been known to blame the hostile thoughts of onlookers for unconsciously influencing pointer readings on sensitive instruments. The hostile vibes, they say, made it impossible for them to duplicate a positive ESP experiment. Being able to duplicate an experiment is essential to confirming its validity. Of course, if this objection is taken seriously, then no experiment on ESP can ever fail."My ad hoc theory was the Fear theory. In this theory, grass pollen was frightened by the gigantic dinosaurs buried in the sediments. This caused the grass pollen to move up in the sediments. Fern pollen was not afraid of dinosaurs, maybe because they shared more habitat with dinosaurs as some posters are hypothesising, so that the fern pollen did not move away from the dinosaurs.I could just as easily say that MY FEAR THEORY works just as well as Walt's since the proof is in the pudding (or sediments). Grass pollen is, in fact, above the dinosaurs and fern pollen is in the same strata as dinosaurs.My question to you, simple, is what experiments do we run to differentiate between the three hypotheses: Walt's Hydraulic sorting, my Fear theory, and Evolutionary theory.This question is very important. Your answer will determine what you understand about scientific inquiry. Hopefully, through this process of experimental design you will understand the weakness of an ad hoc hypothesis whose only support are the results under question.Added in Edit: If Admin thinks that the above post is leading the discussion astray, please let me know and I will withold this post until later.[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 02-06-2004]

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What you don't seem to realize is that you're assuming the impossible. There's no way that water could sort something based on factors that have nothing to do with water.

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Indeed. It would be comparable to a huge fountain in Vegas sorting betting chips by color so they match the order of the rainbow. Not once, mind you, but every time.

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mark24, If one day is as a thousand of our years, then genesis might be included in your the fossil record, this area could of been flooded bring in sand, possible volcanic sediment contributions, 6,000 years is a mighty long time till when the flood happened, but some of the creatures could of been buried alive within the mix, with the fossils sorting above as well, the bible mentions that the earth will shake not since men were upon the earth, it didn't say since life was upon the earth, kjv rev 16:18, etc...

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Where are the shed C. megalodon (75 foot shark) teeth in these bottom layers? They should be there if all the species were around at the time of creation. Why are these teeth only found in the same layers as the huge, complete C. megalodon jaws? Did they move up the layers as soon as every C. megalodon was buried?[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 02-07-2004]

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loudmouth, I don't know, apparently they died during the flood, for who knows what reason, thought they had extra large eyes, I thought the ichthyosaur also perished in the flood because of a bony structure supporting the extra large eye, the eye wasn't designed for the increased pressures, when the eye burst, they then floated until they were sorted in the sediments, that the pressure of the ocean flood waters was greater than a part of their eye structure would allow, etc...

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How did the shed teeth also end up at the top of the fossil record? Remember, the shed teeth and the shark were not physically connected at the time of your flood. For your theory to work, you have to explain how teeth lying on the bottom of the seafloor moved up through the sediments until they reached the dead sharks in every case. Remember, no higher and no lower, but in the exact same strata.

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If you prefer to imagine the deposits as old age related, I can see where you get confused!
Now if all those layers you just mentioned were laid down within a year or so, and really jiggled up, why, it may not be so strange after all.

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So we have this violent shaking, mountains shooting up thousands of feet, water spouting thousands of feet in the air, rain coming down inches to the minute. And yet, WORLDWIDE, the largest and tiniest fossils are sorted without error. Grass pollen is sorted away from fern pollen, current crab species are sorted away from trilobites who where in the same environment, angiosperms and gymnosperms that lived in the same habitat where sorted regardless of size, on and on and on. Not even one human or human artifact can be found in the same layer as dinosaurs. And all of this while the earth was going through a seizure like geologic event. Are you starting to see why the global flood has been falsified?On top of that, the rocks were sorted not by size, but by the ratios of isotopes found within them. Fossils were sorted not by size or habitat, but by the DNA relationships found between extant species. Everything is sorted by things water and violent uplift are incapable of distinguishing between.