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Author Topic:   Fossil sorting for simple
Steve
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 308 (117062)
06-21-2004 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by roxrkool
02-16-2004 10:57 AM


Re: Actual Examples of Sorting?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by roxrkool, posted 02-16-2004 10:57 AM roxrkool has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Unseul, posted 06-21-2004 10:57 AM Steve has not replied
 Message 215 by mark24, posted 06-21-2004 11:23 AM Steve has not replied
 Message 216 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 12:00 PM Steve has replied
 Message 221 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2004 6:30 PM Steve has replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 308 (117194)
06-21-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by NosyNed
06-21-2004 12:00 PM


Re: References
You guys are very funny. When will you give me specifics like you are asking of me.
The links specifically detail what this thread is about and they don't use the bible as the source, they use scientific discovery.
Is your web browser linking properly?
The funny thing is that I know that until you all actually experience life to its fullest and realize yours and sciences limits, you'll never understand anything. You all remind me of the flat earth society people. No matter what evidence you show them they just will not accept it. They look right through it. Even the bible says the world is round:
Isiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 12:00 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2004 4:55 PM Steve has not replied
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Steve
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 308 (117303)
06-21-2004 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by PaulK
06-21-2004 6:30 PM


Re: Actual Examples of Sorting?
Okay, let me make it real simple for you.
Give me the exact dates of these publications, a bibliography if you will. Give me these researchers background, funding and such and then give me their evidence.
You're not being specific. You're saying that such and such a person believed in such and such a thing, but you're not telling me why they believed what they believed, where was their research done and so forth.
Do you seriously believe that 500 flood stories exist by chance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2004 6:30 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 8:49 PM Steve has not replied
 Message 224 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 8:51 PM Steve has not replied
 Message 225 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 8:56 PM Steve has replied
 Message 228 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2004 3:52 AM Steve has replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 308 (117311)
06-21-2004 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by NosyNed
06-21-2004 8:56 PM


Re: Details
no, what I need is a bibliography showing me these supposed evidences against the flood. Than I can break them down for you.
You talk about diggin deeper, but you don't want to give me the information.
by the way, don't worry if you've been going at this for months, people have been rebelling against God since the very first man...Adam!!!
This message has been edited by steve, 06-21-2004 08:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 8:56 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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Steve
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 308 (117479)
06-22-2004 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by PaulK
06-22-2004 3:52 AM


Re: Actual Examples of Sorting?
Ah, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Thank you.
You all are schooling me now. By the way, did you really read all these publications or do you just know about them?
And saying that the ordering of the fossil record cannot be attributed to a world wide flood, does not mean that the world wide flood did not occur.
So now I know what you're looking for. Good.
Now, first things first, it is not possible from this moment on to say that the flood did or did not occur based on all available physical evidence. The purpose now is to look at what is there not from one perspective or he other, but to look at what is there and decide what it is telling us.
You got your rules, I got mine. Now that's what a true scientist does!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2004 3:52 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 234 by NosyNed, posted 06-22-2004 11:34 AM Steve has not replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 308 (117480)
06-22-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Steve
06-22-2004 11:01 AM


Re: Actual Examples of Sorting?
Where does it say that Cuvier did not believe in evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Steve, posted 06-22-2004 11:01 AM Steve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2004 11:10 AM Steve has not replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 308 (118118)
06-24-2004 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by NosyNed
06-23-2004 9:56 PM


Re: bump for steve
The Flood
The worldwide flood presents a problem for those viewing a world spanning billions of years. A worldwide cataclysmic deluge as described in Gen 6-9 would have destroyed all the evidence of the geologic ages and so it as well as the Creation account must be explained away or altered so that the theory of long age for the earth and evolution can remain intact. Of course, on the other hand, the Biblical Flood of Noah can also explain all the sedimentary layers, canyons, gullies, fossils, continent movement, climatic changes, etc.
Nearly every anti-Christian system or movement (communism, racism, humanism, etc.) would be deprived of their pseudo-intellectual foundation if they accepted a worldwide flood as described in scripture.
Many scholars explain away a global flood by claiming it was local. The only other type of flood would have been something that gently rose and then fell — not much chance of that happening.
What does Scripture teach about the flood?
1. Height & Duration of Flood — Gen 7:19-20 The flood covered the tops of the highest mountains. Gen 8:5 This lasted 10 months. (If the mountains were the same height as now (uniformitarianism), the local flood at Mt Ararat would have been 17,000 feet high — this would be a flood 3 miles high that didn’t spread out too far.
2. The Need for an Ark — Gen 7:3 If the flood was local an ark would not have been necessary to preserve living things. The ark carried the equivalent of 522 railroad stock cars based on the dimensions in Gen 6:15 (that was twice the size needed to accommodate 2 of every species of known land animal). What sense was there for Noah to build an ark for many years if there was only going to be a local flood.
3. Destruction of the Earth — Gen 6:13 God said He was going to destroy the earth — local flood wouldn’t accomplish that. Gen 7:11 describes the fountains of the deep burst forth, floodgates of heaven were opened (may have been no rain before the flood — Gen 2:15); Job 12:15 if He lets the waters loose they devastate the land; after the flood God provided a rainbow Gen 9:13
4. God’s unbroken promise — In Gen 9:11, God promises not to send a flood like this again — if it were only local, then He would have broken His promise many times (those who teach a local flood, have God breaking His promise many times)
5. Testimony of Christ and the Apostles — 2 Peter 2:5, 3:6, Heb 11:7 and Luke 17:27 show that the apostles and Christ taught that the flood had to have killed all of mankind except Noah’s family. People would certainly have been distributed around the earth by the time of the flood (modern geology and archaeology believe they would have been distributed by that time) so if one were to accept a local flood then they would need to reject Jesus’, Peter’s, and the author of Hebrews testimonies about the flood.
6. Characteristic of the Flood — In the New Testament, the term for the flood is kataklusmos or a cataclysm. The Bible describes it as torrents of water from the sky, reservoirs from the deep erupting, universal destruction of land animals, mankind, etc. This would include violent tidal action, great winds, rising mountains, sinking basins, and many other geological disruptions, etc.
7. Timing of the events detailed — 600th year of Noah’s life, 2nd month, 17th day. Around 2000 BC, almost 4000 years ago. Rain lasted 40 days. After 150 days water had receded, 7th month, 17th day the ark rested somewhere on the mountains of Ararat. On the 10th month, 1st day the tops of the mountains were visible. 40 more days raven and dove then 7 more days and the dove and another 7 and the dove brings back olive leaf. 601st year, 1st month, 1st day, water had dried up, earth completely dry by 2nd month, 27th day, then he disembarks. (How much more factual an eyewitness account can be recorded in terms of event and timeframe?)
8. Preparation for the Flood — God gave Noah specific size, wood type, etc. and time to make the ark.
9. Message of the Flood — God is patient and loves mankind and gave them a long time to see, hear and repent while Noah built the ark -- but will punish sin. Sin not only offends but grieves or pains God’s heart. The righteous will be blessed and preserved while the wicked will receive punishment. Now is the time to get right with God because when the rain began to fall, it was too late. God made a promise after the flood — He has kept His promise and sends a reminder every so often — a rainbow. He has given mankind a spiritual ark of safety — the opportunity thru Jesus Christ to experience the greatest gift of all — eternal life.
Interesting points, questions, issues
1. Ark — means box, similar term used for small box put in Nile with Moses.
2. Gopher Wood — scholars not certain but could refer to lamination since he was instructed to use pitch within and without.
3. Pitch — modern pitch is from coal tar, however before the discovery of that source of pitch, pine tree resin and charcoal were used to make pitch for 1000 yrs in Europe. Coal tar probably only became available after the flood.
4. Cubit — elbow to tip of middle finger ~ 18. Ark ~ 437’6:L x 72’11W x 43’9H
5. Building Tools — People of Noah’s day had at least the same intellect (perhaps greater) and could have made needed tools such as the use of running waterwheel and sawmill. Elephants, oxen and block and tackle could move heavy objects (maybe even a dinosaur).
6. Fitting the animals — There are far fewer kinds than species and variations and young or baby animals of those that get very large were probably put on the ark. There was plenty of room. (200 species of dogs today could have come from 2 dogs).
7. Types of animals — Clean: 7 of each kind taken, unclean: 2 of each kind taken, 7 of each bird kind.
8. Source of water — fountains of the deep and floodgates of heaven. It is interesting to note that 75% of what spews out of volcanoes is water (steam).
9. Evidence for the Flood — millions of fossils around the world, layers of silt/rock can be seen, fossil fuels (oil, gas, coal, tar sands, etc.)
10. Where are the remains of the ark? — Two locations in the Mtns of Ararat are believed by scholars — one high up on Ararat where snow, ice and weather make it extremely difficult to study — it had a few eye witnesses and a piece of wood taken from it. Another where the outline of the ship is seen and much is petrified — in this location, studies have found laminated wood, metal fasteners, and what possibly could be titanium slag used as ballast. Both locations are in Turkey and the govt. is not too cooperative and the area is dangerous for foreigners to do research so exploration is limited.
As you watch current media you will see a strong bias for local flooding. You will also see a bias that states that all fossils and fossil fuels were laid down over millions of years. Like the big bang theory having no explanation for going from black hole to expanding homogenous universe, there is no plausible explanation for finding fossils and fossil fuels around the globe, the same or similar to modern organisms, so deep in the earth, on the tops of mountains, etc. Since fossils don’t form if animals decay on the surface of the earth, almost all had to be formed by catastrophic burial. We don’t see many being formed today. If they had been forming over millions of years the chance that living things would have survived is rare since each time fossils were formed it required a major catastrophic action (remember that some fossil fuels are 5000’ deep).
It is far easier to believe Noah’s eye witness account, quoted and believed by Jesus Christ and many of the writers of other books of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by NosyNed, posted 06-23-2004 9:56 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by NosyNed, posted 06-24-2004 1:44 AM Steve has not replied
 Message 239 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2004 3:51 AM Steve has replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 308 (118288)
06-24-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by PaulK
06-24-2004 3:51 AM


Re: bump for steve
There is no such account. Genesis nowhere claims to represent an eye-witness account. Even conservative Christians and Jews who oppose Biblical schlarship on the issue attribute the writing of Genesis to Moses. Biblical scholars generally attribute the Genesis account to the combination of two versions of a myth common in the area, another version of which may be found in the older Epic of Gilgamesh.
Actually, Genesis is a compulation put together by Moses, it is a compulation of accounts written by individuals before Moses.
There goes that myth term again. Genesis is not written in a mythical literary format, so calling it a myth is like and Epic a sonnet. It's mistaken to do so. Genesis does not have superhumans, fairies, nymphs, heroic accomplishments by a god-man, and is usually polytheistic, with gods having human qualities, men/women, having god qualities or powers as well as animals having human qualities.
And how does not accepting the flood not contradict scritpure and not support evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2004 3:51 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 257 by jar, posted 06-24-2004 3:21 PM Steve has not replied
 Message 260 by JonF, posted 06-24-2004 4:04 PM Steve has not replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 308 (118289)
06-24-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by mark24
06-24-2004 6:22 AM


Re: Simple reply
Stratigraphic layering is cross-correlatable globally.
Where's the data supporting this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by mark24, posted 06-24-2004 6:22 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Coragyps, posted 06-24-2004 1:36 PM Steve has replied
 Message 258 by Bill Birkeland, posted 06-24-2004 3:24 PM Steve has replied
 Message 262 by mark24, posted 06-24-2004 7:54 PM Steve has not replied

Steve
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 308 (118415)
06-24-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Coragyps
06-24-2004 1:36 PM


Re: Simple reply
Where does it say that is cross-correlated globally?
Non sarcastic responses will do just fine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Coragyps, posted 06-24-2004 1:36 PM Coragyps has not replied

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Steve
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 308 (118526)
06-25-2004 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Bill Birkeland
06-24-2004 3:24 PM


Re: Biostratigraphy was "Re: Simple reply"
The columns in the rock strata are actually made up from different regions of the world. The full rock strata is found nowhere in the world. It is made up of columns superimposed from different regions all over the world. The whole strata is 100 miles thick but there is no locality more than one mile and even this locality is the Grand Canyon
Rock strata is far better explained by a universal flood rather than millions of years.
A catastrophe such as a universal flood is necessary for fossils to form. "Fossils of animals, for example, are formed when animals are buried quickly and under tremendous pressure so that their bones or imprint are preserved in rock. If living things are not buried quickly and under enormous pressure, they will not be fossilized. Most of the many millions of fossils in the world are found in rock which has been affected by water, and, therefore, the fossils of these animals were formed as a result of the animals being buried suddenly and quickly under tremendous water pressure." ([22], p.27)
An event of a universal flood is accounted for "...by hundreds of reflections of this...great event handed down in the legends and historical records of practically all nations and tribes in the earth."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Bill Birkeland, posted 06-24-2004 3:24 PM Bill Birkeland has not replied

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