Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 108 (8806 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-17-2017 3:11 AM
284 online now:
Dr Adequate, PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 281 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,408 Year: 29,014/21,208 Month: 1,080/1,847 Week: 3/452 Day: 3/115 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123456
7
8Next
Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
ringo
Member
Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 91 of 111 (819986)
09-15-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:27 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:

How is it fair to me to be stuck with the masses...unable to rise?


Help everybody to rise. Float the bottom of the boat and the top will rise with it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 92 of 111 (819987)
09-15-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
09-15-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Understanding Money
A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?

But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has?

Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:34 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 111 (819988)
09-15-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:

A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?
But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has?


Give up your chicken. Don't expect the neighbours to pay for your Cadillac.

Phat writes:

Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?


Why do you deserve more than everyone else?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 94 of 111 (819990)
09-15-2017 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
09-15-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Why do you deserve more than everyone else?
What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 11:40 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 111 (820083)
09-16-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:38 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:

What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?


Why do you deserve to be above the tide?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-16-2017 12:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 96 of 111 (820095)
09-16-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-16-2017 11:40 AM


What The Masses Deserve
Why do you deserve to be above the tide?
My Dad used to explain his take on socialism to me. Of course, he conflated it with Soviet Era communism, but he basically made the argument that in America, people were free to buy the car that they could afford rather than be forced to all drive essentially the same car. You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things. Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it?

I agree that we should focus on raising the tide for the workers. I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however.

If the cashier cant come to an agreement with the Boss, the cashiers collectively pressure the Boss for more. If the Boss refuses, we look for other jobs. One side is partial to favoritism and the value of an individual worker, where young strong folks have value. The other side is partial to experience and patience, where the older people apply wisdom and patience as a skill equivalent to muscle. In a free country, there is never a discussion on what an individual deserves. Only on what an individual can aspire to have through hard work, muscle, patience, and wisdom.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 12:29 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 97 of 111 (820102)
09-16-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
09-16-2017 12:10 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:

You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things.


There isn't. Nor is there any law or principle that entitles you to something better than the next person.

Phat writes:

Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it?


How are you being "forced" to accept anything? You act like you're the victim - being "forced" to accept what millions of others have. Again, what entitles you to something better?

Phat writes:

I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however.


Who has suggested that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-16-2017 12:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:53 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 98 of 111 (820185)
09-17-2017 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
09-16-2017 12:29 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Again, what entitles you to something better?
If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it. There will be a cost that I pay one way or another, but I believe that I can achieve what it is I want. In a sense, I entitle myself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 2:16 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13987
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 99 of 111 (820202)
09-17-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-17-2017 2:53 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:

If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it.


Why shouldn't the poor peons in the working class have the means too? What entitles you to a leg up on them?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:10 PM ringo has responded
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 100 of 111 (820207)
09-17-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
09-17-2017 2:16 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
What entitles you to a leg up on them?
If there were factors that made my paycheck larger than theirs and my bosses paychck larger than mine they would be
  • Education
  • Experience
  • Ability

    The union would add

  • Length Of Service

    You may argue that they have greater need.

  • Need

    My question is does need trump education and experience and ability and length of service? I too use the criteria of need. I am older, approaching retirement, and need a bigger paycheck than a 16 year old who got his girlfriend pregnant yet lives at home? So many scenarios factor into one member of a working-class needing more than another member.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 2:16 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:30 PM Phat has responded

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10240
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 101 of 111 (820209)
    09-17-2017 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
    09-17-2017 2:16 PM


    Re: What The Masses Deserve
    Why shouldn't the poor peons in the working class have the means too?
    Should they have the same means regardless of education? Regardless of ambition? Ability? Strength? Need?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 2:16 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:35 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13987
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (1)
    Message 102 of 111 (820213)
    09-17-2017 3:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
    09-17-2017 3:10 PM


    Re: What The Masses Deserve
    Phat writes:

    If there were factors that made my paycheck larger than theirs and my bosses paychck larger than mine they would be
    Education

    Experience

    Ability
    The union would add

    Length Of Service


    I don't buy any of that. There are minimum-wage cashiers with equal ability and more experience and more length of service.

    Phat writes:

    My question is does need trump education and experience and ability and length of service?


    The problem is that the need is there whether the paycheque fills the need or not. Needs that are not met cause poorer heath, more absenteeism, poorer childcare, poorer education, more poverty, more crime, etc.

    You don't accomplish anything by ignoring needs. Invest in the lowest paid workers and you'll save yourself a lot of tax dollars in the long run.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:10 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:32 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10240
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 103 of 111 (820214)
    09-17-2017 3:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
    09-17-2017 3:30 PM


    Re: What The Masses Deserve
    I think I agree with your argument. I only fight for more because I think I need it. You argue that raising the tide is better than individual initiative. You and Bernie Sanders would get along well!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:30 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13987
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 104 of 111 (820215)
    09-17-2017 3:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
    09-17-2017 3:14 PM


    Re: What The Masses Deserve
    Phat writes:

    Should they have the same means regardless of education?


    They should have the same access to education.

    Phat writes:

    Regardless of ambition?


    Ambition is over-rated. I'd hire somebody who just wants to do his job well rather than somebody who wants to be the CEO before he's 30.

    Phat writes:

    Ability? Strength?


    For the umpteenth time, you do not have more ability or strength than the minimum wage earner.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:14 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:40 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10240
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 105 of 111 (820216)
    09-17-2017 3:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
    09-17-2017 3:35 PM


    Re: What The Masses Deserve
    So if you were the union chief officer, would you propose flat wage scales for every worker versus progressive wage scales based on length of service? Should the new guy get as much as the 14-year veteran?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:35 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 106 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Prev123456
    7
    8Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017