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Author Topic:   Creation
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 301 of 389 (814933)
07-13-2017 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by PaulK
07-12-2017 4:43 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
I am not an old earth, new earth or intelligent design creationist. I simply read the Bible and see what it says. It is my understanding, just from reading, that Moses was shown creation by God in 6 days.

God created the universe / multi-verse and all the physical laws of the universe. He could have created the universe the minute before I was born with everything appropriately aged, but I don't feel He did, just from common sense and reading the Bible.

I don't have scripture or science to back me up on this belief, just common sense.

Edited by Tom Larkin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2017 4:43 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 302 of 389 (814934)
07-13-2017 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:34 PM


Just another world-conforming rationalization
Spiritual death is just the beginning of all death. Of course I already knew you were just juggling scripture to justify evolution when you denied the history of Biblical interpretation by separating the creation of human beings between Genesis 1 and 2. If a person is going to hold on to one side of the conflict between the Bible and Evolution surely it would be more defensible to hold onto God's word even in the teeth of all the ridicule that will inevitably follow, rather than make friends with the world to avoid that sort of persecution.
This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 303 of 389 (814936)
07-13-2017 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:41 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
OK I'll accept that you are a genuine believer, though you use a very strange translation of the Bible and ignore the entire history of Biblical exegesis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-13-2017 6:41 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 304 of 389 (814968)
07-14-2017 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:41 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
quote:

I am not an old earth, new earth or intelligent design creationist. I simply read the Bible and see what it says. It is my understanding, just from reading, that Moses was shown creation by God in 6 days.

I don't think that you will find anywhere in the Bible that says that Moses was "shown creation by God in six days". i don't remember it from my own reading and I've never seen anyone else offer a quote to that effect. There's not even a clear attribution of Genesis to Moses (who, in reality - if he even existed - is unlikely to have written any book of the Bible).

Regardless, a young Earth view is not consistent with scientific findings, nor the idea that the creation described in Genesis 1 used evolution to bring about the diversity of plants and animals. It may be that you intended your initial statement to deny that you are a creationist - but I never said that you were.

quote:

God created the universe / multi-verse and all the physical laws of the universe. He could have created the universe the minute before I was born with everything appropriately aged, but I don't feel He did, just from common sense and reading the Bible.

Omphalism. It's never been a popular view because it requires God to deceive. Unnecessarily creating evidence of a false past is obviously a deception - and Science has found evidence of a very long past, for the Earth and an even longer past for our Universe.

quote:

I don't have scripture or science to back me up on this belief, just common sense.

I think that the same common sense that tells you that the Universe was not created a few minutes ago, should also tell you that the evidence of an old Earth is to be believed.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-13-2017 6:41 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 305 of 389 (814972)
07-14-2017 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:21 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
quote:

In Chapter 1 men and women were created, it Chapter 2 Adam and Eve were created, this is not a great stretch and I believe a logical conclusion if you simply reading Genesis as if for the first time.

A rather naive conclusion since there is rather clear evidence that there are two conflicting stories there. For instance the animals being created after Adam hardly agrees with them being created before humans.

quote:

There is actually scientific data published in reliable sources that align with this theory. 1. Nature (Callaway, Ewen, Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time, Nature, 6Aug13) 2. (Mozambican Grass Seed Consumption During the Middle Stone Age, Science, 18Dec 2009).

No, there is not. I am sorry if the use of "Adam" and "Eve" confused you into thinking that they referred to the individuals in the Bible but that is not at all justified by the evidence. If you followed the Bible, Noah would be "Adam" and you don't have a great case for identifying "Eve" with the Biblical Eve at all.

quote:

More detail in the book, if you contact me you I will send the manuscript or you can get online

I think that it is clear that you have a lot of work to do, before you are ready to publish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-13-2017 6:21 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-14-2017 6:01 AM PaulK has responded

    
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 306 of 389 (814979)
07-14-2017 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by PaulK
07-14-2017 12:38 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Paul:

First of all, thanks for the feedback, I came to this forum to have intelligent discussion.

I have presented a Biblical argument correlated with scientific data that Genesis is presented sequentially. The creation in Chapter 1 is very different in order of event and content than the creation in chapter 2, so, as you say, if this was a retelling of the same story they would be conflicting. I am proposing that these are two very different creation stories that happen sequentially, Genesis 1 is the creation of the universe, sun moon and stars, earth, plants animals and men and women. Chapter 2 describes a specific creation of Adam, Eve and the garden.

You appear to be presenting statements without logical reasoning to back them up, please provide this as it would be helpful. The scientific data simply indicates that we are all descended from one man and one woman, who lived approximately 90k -150k BCE (BC is an oxymoron, there was no time before Christ). This man and this woman lived at the time when there were other men and women around. This data is consistent with the "separate creation" of Adam, Eve and the garden, created after the creation in Chapter 1 of other men and women.

Whether this is Noah or Adam is irrelevant as we are told in Genesis 6 that "Noah was perfect in his generations" so his DNA was of Adam and Eve.

Also, the reason stated for Adam's creation was "there was not a man to till the ground", the other reference I provided lists evidence that the start of "farming" aligns with the timeframe stated above. I just thought this was an interesting addition. The date proposed by scientific data will change, they always do, but the alignment is the important piece.

Tom

Edited by Tom Larkin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2017 12:38 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 307 of 389 (814982)
07-14-2017 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tom Larkin
07-14-2017 6:01 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
quote:

The scientific data simply indicates that we are all descended from one man and one woman, who lived approximately 90k -150k BCE (BC is an oxymoron, there was no time before Christ). This man and this woman lived at the time when there were other men and women around. This data is consistent with the "separate creation" of Adam, Eve and the garden, created after the creation in Chapter 1 of other men and women.

I think you need a slightly deeper understanding of what the science actually shows.

In each case DNA samples were taken and compared, and the time calculated is an estimate of the time taken for the differences in the DNA to accumulate.

In one case the DNA came from the Y chromosome which passes down the male line, in the other it was mitochondrial DNA which (with rare exceptions) passes down the female line.

Now, since it is hardly unknown for a man to have no sons and a woman to have no daughters it follows that there should be a convergence at some point. And if you think about it there is no good reason to think that the individuals identified are the most recent common ancestors.

If we follow the Bible, and assume that the population was reduced to 8 people at some point then the Y chromosome common ancestor would be Noah (most likely). But we can't identify the mitochondrial common ancestor - we don't know the ancestry of the wives at all, let alone have a guarantee that they were all descended from Eve in an unbroken female lineage.

However, we also have no evidence that the human population was ever reduced that low or even close to it. So - even assuming a literal Adam and Eve it is rather likely that the common ancestors shown by the DNA are other, unrelated people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-14-2017 6:01 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 308 of 389 (814987)
07-14-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:09 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
which eliminates the conflict with evolution

How so?

Men and woman in chapter 1 ("daughters of men") were created prior to Adam and Eve ("sons of God")in Chapter 2.

I disagree. The first two chapters in Genesis are not in any chronological order.

Also, according to history, Chapter 2 was actually written before Chapter 1.

Men and women in Chapter 1, I speculate, we created by God are part of the normal evolution process, just like all the other creation in Chapter 1

So you have speculated that there is no conflict, not "eliminated" it, correct?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-13-2017 6:09 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 309 of 389 (814988)
07-14-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
07-13-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
So you apparently agree with others here that Paul was lying when he said in the Romans passage I quoted in Message 280 and Message 283 that death entered the world as a result of Adam's sin?

If I say:

"Just like Star Trek had the Prime Directive, if we find life on another planet then we need to be careful."

Am I claiming that Star Trek is a real thing that actually happened?
Or can I just be referencing a commonly understood fiction?
Given that Star Trek is not real, would I be lying to say what I said?

I don't think so: Star Trek really does have a Prime Directive. We all just know that I'm referencing fiction.

Perhaps Paul was doing the same?


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 310 of 389 (814989)
07-14-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tom Larkin
07-14-2017 6:01 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Some dates.

While Wikipedia is very far from the last word it makes a good starting place.

The origins of agriculture: Neolithic Revolution

Around 12,500 years ago.

Y-chromosomal Adam


As of 2015, estimates of the age of the Y-MRCA range around 200,000 to 300,000 years ago

Mitochondrial Eve


her age is not known with certainty; a 2009 estimate cites an age between c. 152 and 234 thousand years ago (95% CI); a 2013 study cites a range of 99148 thousand years ago

There don't really seem to coincide. In particular, despite the huge uncertainty, the Y-chromosomal Adam is a long way before the Neolithic Revolution.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 311 of 389 (815002)
07-14-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:34 PM


Tom Larkin writes:

Adam did not die when he ate the fruit, he experienced spiritual death or separation from God.


It wasn't "separation" from God as much as growing up and becoming less dependent on God:
quote:
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The natural scheme of things was for Adam to "leave" God to join Eve. His thoughts were filtered through hers. He had two "advisors" instead of one.

And that was before the fruit-eating incident and the supposed "fall".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-13-2017 6:34 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10071
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 312 of 389 (815046)
07-14-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tom Larkin
07-14-2017 6:01 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
The scientific data simply indicates that we are all descended from one man and one woman, who lived approximately 90k -150k BCE (BC is an oxymoron, there was no time before Christ).

This is not correct. The scientific data has identified the time period for the youngest common female ancestor descended only along a line of strictly female ancestors. This is unlikely to have been the first woman alive. Similarly, a corresponding time for the most recent common male descended along a strictly male line of ancestors.

And the timing is such that the two ancestors would not have been contemporaries. Short summary. That's not Adam and Eve, nor is it a finding inconsistent with evolution.

As for BC being an oxymoron. Nope. Even if your understanding is that Jesus is an eternal being, the Bible does describe a date for his birth as a man. BC refers to that date.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-14-2017 6:01 AM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 313 of 389 (815121)
07-16-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by NoNukes
07-14-2017 10:04 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Regarding alignment, you are making the same argument that I am making. The youngest common ancestors are not the first humans. This is held by science and I include the reference in nature.

What I am saying is that the events of Genesis 1 and 2 are in sequence, in Chapter 1, men and women are created. In chapter 2 Adam and Eve are created, not the first men and women. Therefore there is no conflict with evolution, evolved man is in chapter 1.

With regard to there being no time before Christ. in John 1 it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and all things were made through him". In the Old Testament, Jesus is referred to as "The angel of the Lord" who speaks with the authority of God. It is an interesting study if you ever want to take it up. (See Zechariah 3:4 where the angel of the Lord takes away sin).

Tom


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 322 by ringo, posted 07-17-2017 12:00 PM Tom Larkin has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29627
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 314 of 389 (815127)
07-16-2017 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 4:06 PM


On the Bible and reality
Tom Larking writes:

In the Old Testament, Jesus is referred to as "The angel of the Lord" who speaks with the authority of God.

Jesus is not mentioned or referenced anywhere in the Old Testament.

And both of the Creation myths are still factually incorrect.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 315 of 389 (815129)
07-16-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by jar
07-16-2017 5:10 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
Can you elaborate on the logic associated with your conclusions? You should view the "Argument Clinic" by Monty Python, it is very funny.

Where is my logic flawed? Jesus is all throughout the old testament - check out the 22nd Psalm - it is a detailed description of the crucification.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 5:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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