Does the bible condemn homosexuality?

(resuming thread http://EvC Forum: God used Evolution in 6 days in an appropriate topic and section)

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I don't think murder is as bad as homosexuality

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Please explain how you come to the conclusion that an act between two consenting adults is as bad as taking a person's life. Welcome to Crazytown..

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none of them ever stooped to the level of confusion and satanic worship of their own sexual lusts that most homosexuals do today

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Oh, come now! When was the last time that you saw a building that said "First Church Of The Dark Lord" decorated with silk curtains and a matching couches which complement the imported rug?If you'd actually met and spoken to anyone who is gay or bi, you'd come to realize that most of them are Christians in this country! They believe in God and Jesus as much as the average American. Nor do they "worship their sexual lusts" any more than anyone else in their age/gender group, from my experience.

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coming soon : Sodom and Gramorah part two, san francisco

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A little off topic, but:"Gays Prevent Tornadoes; Baptists Cause Them"
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=3&id=359P.S. - Headcase, notice how the discussion about homosexuality tends to always almost exclusively about men (just as the discussion about transsexuality almost always focuses on m2fs.). Are you so riled about homosexuality that you forgot that [B]women count, too[B]? In the same manner that the Bible tends to forget that women are relevant to the society (with the brief exception of Mary, and Esther (who - guess what - sleeps her way to the top.).------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-18-2003]

1) First off, CrazyTown (and "Crazy Town") have been around a lot longer than that commercial. In fact, there's even a band called "Crazy town", who was popular in 1999.2) Would you have been upset if I had made a joke about, "Can you hear me now?", or listed a bunch of costs and then said, "A debate with headcase: priceless."?3) Let's get the numbers...http://www.glcensus.com/press/08062003.htmlWell, of the religions that they list explicitly that are Christians, that's 41.1% Christian. However, their numbers for the top 10 don't even add up to 50%, while the total from their study showed 63.7% belonged to a religion, meaning that many belong to small churches. So, I think the best way to do it would be to get the ratio of Christians to all in the top 10, and then multiply that by .637. You get about 55% of gays and lesbians belong to a Christian church. And then there are those who are Christian, but don't belong to a particular church....I'd say that considering yourself Christian is a strong indicator that you don't worship Satan, unless you have a major short circuit up there. And I have to disagree with that latter assessment of yours about God's opinion. The translation of "qadesh" as "homosexual" is idiotic, given that the accepted translation of "qadeshah" as "prostitute". The only distinctly anti-gay person in the bible is Paul, and he's also highly anti-woman, and all sorts of other things.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-20-2003]

1) I never meant to stir the ire of the anti-anti-tobacco crowd, any more than if I had said "Can you hear me now?" I would have had the intent of stirring the ire of the anti-cell phone crowd. It amazes me how much of an overreaction I got to the saying "Welcome to crazytown".2) You should take your spanking and turn it back on yourself (again). Read my first post - I said in this country.3) You stated: "Certainly all evidence in the Bible supports the idea that God supports the latter." (in reference to a choice between homosexuality and murder).I suggest that you take more time before you post. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Hello, Holmes! You need to catch a clue: Every Commercial Is Propaganda. What, is this particular issue bothering to you because it's from the government? Then would you have overreacted if I had used the phrase "Be all that you can be", or anything to that effect? Don't be ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the phrase "welcome to crazy town". A) It was completely apt here, B) that commercial did not invent it, and C) even it if had, it would be utterly irrelevant.2) Apology taken, and3) My apology.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Hi, Joralex. Thank you for the calm, well-worded reply. I will try to respond in kind.As Holmes pointed out, the linguistic issue needs to be addressed. How can qadeshah accurately be translated as "prostitute", but qadesh be translated as "homosexual"? It actually has a whole lot more to do with worship of pagan gods and godesses than sexuality.A few other points:1) Where is being a lesbian condemned?2) Where are other elements of the GLBT community, such as transsexuals (both m2f and f2m) condemned (I assume that you include them as well)?

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A 'homosexual Christian' is as much an oxymoron as is a 'drunkard Christian', a 'gluttonous Christian', a 'lying Christian', a 'thieving Christian', ... etc

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Or a divorced Christian? (more common, proportionally, than divorced atheists/agnostics).Ignoring the linguistic issue presented above, there's another problem with this: what parts of the bible you choose to follow, and which you choose not to. Do you sacrifice doves to cure mildew? No? If your argument is that "Jesus was the last sacrifice" (not in the text, but let's just pretend that it is), we can get into some of the more esoteric commandments. Do you wear clothes made from two different kinds of fabric? Do you have a female relative who has short hair, or who teaches? I could go on for quite a while... there are many, many commandments in the bible that are no longer followed. On what grounds do you get to pick and choose?

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Homosexualism is not the unpardonable sin. The homosexual need only to repent to God and to cease the practice - period.

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If they have the sort of success found in the ex-gay organizations, then that's pretty sad. Do you want me to get into the ex-gay organizations? They have been such a dismal failure, with one huge scandal after another, that it's almost comedic. From Paulk and his trip to the gay bar, and his ex-lesbian wife who never had a girlfriend, to the founders of Exodus International who left the organization and had a commitment ceremony, to the numerous scandals of Homosexuals Anonymous to the string of closures across the United States to the rates of suicide among their members, it has been one of the most ineffective campaigns in history.Also, I would be interested in some more things being explained.1) The major statistical difference in finger lengths in the gay community, especially in lesbians. I can also get into other biological differences if you'd like - there are a good number of them (ranging from the extremely high ratio of left-handedness to the sizes of components of the brain)
2) The presence of intersex babies. If there are intersex bodies, why not intersex minds?

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Without God, homosexual behavior cannot be ethically condemned - not 'really' since the absolute foundation for ethics would be missing.

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Actually, I agree to that. There are no absolutes in a world without some omniscient, omnipotent deity. It is something that all remotely philosophical atheists deal with. From the "no purpose" point, humans inherently gravitate toward existentialism, in which they define things to be relevant and have meaning. For me, that choice was humanist ideals - concern for humanity and life itself. It is an arbitrary definition, for sure. But it is one that adds meaning to reality, giving purpose to existence.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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it would seem that the latter is not connected to the former, necessarily

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Correct, biologically. However, it points out a theological issue. If God is willing to make people who are physically incongruous with their gender (which He apparently is), why would he not also make people who are sexually incongruous with their gender?

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That is, males are more likely to be left handed than females. If gay men are more likely to be left-handed, then it would appear that gay men are more masculine, not less.

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Again, quite true. There is lots of evidence of both hypermasculinization and hypomasculinization in gay men, depending on different factors. But, to paraphrase Galileo's famous "And yet, it moves" remark - "And yet, the changes are there."The fact remains that there are major statistical anomalies in characteristics of gays and lesbians. Why? We haven't the slightest, although there are theories. But there are significant statistical genetic and physical differences from the average population.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

(reply is to Joralex)In reference to this specific passage:

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Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust toward one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient,

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Ignoring that you're misreading cause and effect (the cause, if you read the chapter, is that they turned away from God and started worshipping idols; the effect is that they began to practice same sex relations, which were often associated with pagan worship), this is Romans, offered by Paul. Paul considers it shameful. So? Do you agree with Paul that women should be submissive? Do you agree that women should not teach men? Do you agree that women are saved through childbearing? Do you see original sin as the woman's fault? Do you believe that slaves should obey their earthly masters with deep respect and fear? Do you think that they should do whatever their masters tell them, no matter how harsh? Does your church speak in tongues? Paul treats all of these things as critical to a godly society.If you're going to pick and choose parts of the bible, do you use a priest to clean mildew? Do you sacrifice doves for forgiveness? Do you wear clothes made from two kinds of fabric? Does your church ban the disabled? The bible is filled with all kinds of commandments that noone today follows. What gives you the right to choose? Your "inference"? Because I, for one, would infer that a kind and loving God wouldn't create people with clear statistically-evident differences, and then set the rules in opposition to them. Of course, I would also assume that a God that creates commandments for men and women wouldn't create people who are physically incongruous to either one. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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I am personally convinced - after a great deal of research into the matter - that the AKJ 1611 version is the only valid translation that exists.

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.Ah. So, did your "great deal of research" include the word qadesh?(BTW, why do you use colors, and not quote tags?)

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my position is based on the totality of Scripture

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So were the positions of those who used it to defend slavery. Your point?

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Even so, 'male prostitution' is.... what? A male selling his 'services' to females or to other males or both?

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Well, the context of pagan worship, typically both. And that isn't at all related to homosexuality. Prostitution != homosexuality.

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there was not a single Bible scholar (that I recall) that had any doubt whatsoever about God's position toward homosexual behavior

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Really? F.F. Bruce remarks about Paul's reference in Galatians 3:28 emphasizes that there is no theological difference to the heterosexual pair "male and female", and also discusses Ezekiel's definition of what Sodom's sin was (pride and selfishness). The Fundamentalist Journal concludes that the leviticus holiness code, based on the teachings of Jesus and Paul in Mark 7:17-23 and Romans 14:14,20 rejects the old line of ritual distinctions, which were based on keeping the hebrew people as a distinct line (such as not wearing cloth from two different kinds of fabric, ritual purity, etc). They write that the code condemns "idolatrous practices" and "ceremonial uncleanliness", and conclude "We are not bound by these commands today." Presbyterian bible scholar George R. Edwards writes that no prophet even uses the noun for male cult prostitutes (qadesh); in fact, they're remarkably silent on anything that could be interpreted as referring to homosexuality, despite speaking about relationships extensively. Victor Paul Furnish writes about my previous point, that in Romans, even the highly conservative Paul (my words, not his ) was obviously referring to idolatry in the paragraph, and describing that as the sin, and by it referenced the fertility cults that involved promiscuous sex between priests and priestesses and their worshipers. Catherine Kroeger wrote in the Journal of Evangelical Theological Society about many of the old practices referred to (which actually led to the origin of our word "shaman"). These activities of sexual pagan worship were occuring in temples all across Paul's travels. As a consequence, this was Paul's entire conception of "homosexuality" - promiscuous activity in pagan worship. Thielicke and Scroggs come to the same conclusion. Gordon D. Fee and the Fundamentalist Journal weigh in on Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, concluding that the words malokoi and arsenokoitai are notoriously difficult to translate,. Scroggs concludes that, given its usage in early Greek writings, the only accurate translation of 'malokoi' could be 'pederasty'. 'Arsenokoitai' seems to have been coined by Paul. In Greek culture, malokoi were young boys procured (either free or slave) for use as a sex object. Sometimes they were paid, sometimes they weren't. Perhaps this could be viewed as a condemnation of NAMBLA, but hardly the gay community. For more writings, you can read the works of Bernard Ramm and Marten H. Woudstra. In short, the general conclusion is that there is nothing in the bible that reflected at all homosexuality as it is known today, only cult prostitution. Stanford classics professor John J. Winkler warns against "reading contemporary concerns and politics into texts and artifacts removed from their societal context."Source: "The Bible Is An Empty Closet", (C) 1999 Evangelicals Concerned Western Regional Fellowship [quote]God "gives them up to their lusts of their own hearts and to their vile affections"[quote] Yes, you're right, that is not the same thing as making them homosexual. In this passage, he lets them continue onward and fall into being eastern Mediterranean pagan fertility worshippers.

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nor sodomite sons of Israel

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But That Is An Inaccurate Translation Of QadeshHow many times do we have to point out that "Sodomite" is an english word coined because of a general public perception of Sodom's sin being homosexuality, despite flat-out contradiction from Ezekiel? And that "homosexual" is also a horrible translation, because Qadesh itself comes from the pagan goddess Qadesh. And, the word "whore" is qadeshah - merely the feminine form of the exact same word!I know you're in love with the KJV, but there's a number of awful translations in it. For an example, "coat of many colours" should actually be translated as "brightly colored coat". There's near universal consensus on this. But some people hold KJV up almost as an idol, and refuse to acknowledge where it's wrong.I would like a response to my comments about biological differences, and the intergendered, and how this fits into God's plan.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-24-2003]

What, Joralex? Not going to respond to my earlier post in which I took apart your post line by line? Well, here's another thing you'll need to answer should you ever take the time to respond to the issues that you're dodging:In America, AIDS is more prevalent (not by numbers, but by percentages) in the gay male community (not in all countries - in most parts of Africa, for example, HIV is almost exclusively spread by heterosexuals). *However*, nowhere in the world is AIDS prevalent in the lesbian community. In fact, lesbians have (both worldwide and in the USA) the lowest rates of HIV infection. This is due to the fact that transmission of HIV between lesbians is very difficult.So, if AIDS is God's punishment for sin, he must love lesbians more than heterosexuals. Right, Joralex?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-25-2003]

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I don't know if you have a son (or any children for that matter) but since you don't seem to mind homosexuals then why don't you try the following : if/when you have a son, leave him unsupervised in the company of a clan of homosexual men for a few weeks and tell me if you are able to sleep completely at ease during that time.

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You know, I just realized something. You've never known a gay person, have you? And I don't mean "screamed at one during a protest rally".Another thing for the list of points you need to answer to: Have you ever known someone for a while, and then found out that they're gay?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Nice Job, Joralex. You not only ignored all of the questions that I previously posed but you didn't want to answer, but you also failed to address this one. Try again!Explain how you can conclude that AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality when a) it didn't start in the homosexual community - that's only representative of America (and as much as most American fundies would like it to be so, America != The World), b) in most parts of the world, it is prevalent in heterosexuals, and especially c) lesbians have a much lower transmission rate than heterosexuals.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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a "clan" (clan???)

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I just assumed he was referring to the notorious ninja homosexuals of feudal Japan

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------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

hehe, I just whipped it together when Dan said that... it's his fault, he got the image stuck in my head. I'm a former photo-editing competitor from Worth1000.com ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Oh yeah, thanks for mentioning that, Crash. Bedbugs can even reproduce indirectly through homosexual sex. Whiptail lizards can *only* reproduce through homosexual sex. Bonobos do same sex activity all of the time. As do numerous other primates, dolphins, and many other animals.But Joralex, don't take answering this question as being an excuse for getting out of the other issues that I've raised. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Where can I get a copy of this "Natural Rules for Humans" book? Because I seem to have misplaced mine, and the bible... well, we've already discussed that. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."