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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
IMO we have free will. IMO, a physicalist account of cognition is possible, at least in principle. If all you have is a brain, you have no self capable of willing an act. Everything you do is caused physically. If it's caused physically it wasn't "your" decision. The body is just going through automatic reactions to stimuli, like water running down hill.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Let's flesh that out in the form of a syllogism.
premises:
I would like to know what is the unstated assumption of 1(b). For sure, conclusion 1 does not follow from premise 1(a) alone.
1(a): all you have is a brain; 1(b): (unstated premise) conclusion: 1: you have no self capable of willing an act. premises:
I would also like to know unstated premise 2(b), for conclusion 2 does not follow from 2(a) alone.
2(a): it's caused physically; 2(b): (unstated premise) conclusion: 2: it wasn't "your" decision. The body is just going through automatic reactions to stimuli, like water running down hill.
That seems badly wrong. Even an ordinary clock is not adequately describe as "automatic reactions to stimuli". The clock isn't receiving any stimuli, yet it still makes actions. You are ignoring the fact that a clock and a person both have stored internal energy, and are using that internal energy to generate actions that are not explainable in terms of external stimuli impinging on the system (clock or person).
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Hi, Faith. Sorry I couldn't return to the discussion sooner. At some future point I'd like to continue discussing brain/mind issues, but for now I'd like to go with the flow in this 2nd part thread.
The issue at hand IS that it logically follows from the ToE that either there is no God or God is evil because He created a world full of death and destruction, which you have just affirmed by your example of the fossil record -- which is regarded as major evidence for the ToE after all. Those are not the only two possibilities. Another possibility is a Creator who is not omnipotent--a God who can create the universe but not dictate every detail of its unfolding. An omniscient God might see that the game is worth the candle but be unable to prevent the burns along the way. Is it bad form to link to my own messages? Oh well. Here's what I said to mike the wiz on the subject earlier today. Indeed, many early religions distinguished between the creating god/gods and the "operating" gods.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hi, Faith. Sorry I couldn't return to the discussion sooner. At some future point I'd like to continue discussing brain/mind issues, but for now I'd like to go with the flow in this 2nd part thread.
The issue at hand IS that it logically follows from the ToE that either there is no God or God is evil because He created a world full of death and destruction, which you have just affirmed by your example of the fossil record -- which is regarded as major evidence for the ToE after all. Those are not the only two possibilities. Another possibility is a Creator who is not omnipotent--a God who can create the universe but not dictate every detail of its unfolding. An omniscient God might see that the game is worth the candle but be unable to prevent the burns along the way. OK, I'll accept that. It's just a matter of modifying the OP list again. So what logically follows from the ToE is 1) No God 2) An evil God, or 3) a weak or unconcerned God. Or maybe it should be summed up: Either no God or any God but the omniscient omnipotent God of Love of the Bible.
Is it bad form to link to my own messages? Probably, but I do it. If you've knocked yourself out getting something said, why not make sure everyone sees it?
Oh well. Here's what I said to mike the wiz on the subject earlier today. Indeed, many early religions distinguished between the creating god/gods and the "operating" gods. Again, either NO God or any God except the Biblical God. How about that? This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 10:54 PM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
yes yes. but see. when you make an opening post, you are the one replied to. those are quoted from the person you linked to. hence i quote them in response to you, the primary poster. and, it's all the more appropriate since that person was also replying to you.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's too hard to follow. Setting it up like that looks like you are debating the quotes and that the quotes are mine because I'm the one you are responding to. If you are agreeing with them against me, that has to be made clear, and it would help if you identified the person being quoted. AND I have no idea what the quotes were responding TO in what I might have said, so quoting that -- what I had said --- is also necessary.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 08:56 PM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
yeah generally that's what reading is for.
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5900 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Ah, well. I figured it was a bad idea jumping into the other thread so close to its figurative and literal end. Hopefully we can pick up the conversation where it left off in some other venue. My reply to you would be severely off-topic here, IMO.
Someone pass the popcorn, as I'm back to spectator mode.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Seemed to me to be on topic there, so why not here, but I admit I've already forgotten the post, so I guess I can take your word for it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There's no point, jar. It's been dealt with on this thread already, and reformulated:
Atheism and Any God But the Biblical God are compatible with the ToE some versions of God of which I've been collecting in Message 1. I suppose your version would just be another one of those, so if you want to add it to the collection, that's up to you. Or if you'd like to argue that my new formulation is wrong, that's OK too. But we've settled it that atheism is definitely a logical inference from the ToE, and any God (an evil one, a weak or uninvolved one, lesser gods etc) -- any God but an omnipotent, omniscient good God of Love, the Biblical God, also appears to be compatible. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 10:57 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But we've settled it that atheism is definitely a logical inference from the ToE, and any God but the Biblical God also appear to be compatible. Just not the Biblical God. There's no point, jar. It's been dealt with on this thread already, and reformulated:
Atheism and Any God But the Biblical God are compatible with the ToE No, that's what you've asserted. You have offerend nothing supportive. I and many other Christians, many, many, many, many Christians see no conflict at all between the TOE and Christianity. I can provide proof that it is possible to accept both the TOE and the Christian Biblical GOD. I am a Christian that also accepts the TOE; therefore your asertion HAS been refuted. If you like I can provide aditional proof. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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AdminNWR Inactive Member |
yeah generally that's what reading is for.
Perhaps it was not so intended, but that comes across as a bit of an insult. You have been asked in the past to control your tendency to post one-liner smart-alec remarks. When responding to a post in a different thread, the best option IMO, is to use the Gen Reply button for your reply, and to include a link to the message to which you are responding. It's a bit late now to use Gen Reply, but it is not too late to go back, edit Message 6, and add the appropriate link. To comment on moderation procedures or respond to admin messages:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's been proved jar. A good God is not compatible with the ToE because it treats death and suffering as natural. A good God would not have made a universe full of pain, and the Biblical God didn't, So the God of the Bible is not compatible with the ToE. That's no mere assertion, that's supportive reasoning. It's been proved. There's nothing more to say.
Others have pointed out that a God who can't run his own universe is also compatible with the ToE, as are lesser godlets etc. OK, those are also not the God of the Bible. Sorry, it's been thoroughly proved. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 09:36 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No, people so far have only made assertions. No proof has been offered by anyone except me so far.
I have said that I believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE. Therefore your assertion is refuted. I'm sorry Faith, but that is the way reality works. You have asserted something is impossible. I provided evidence that it is possible. You have been refuted. Doesn't matter what you believe, your assertion is as daid as YEC. Two plus two does not equal five no matter what you believe. If you wish I will be happy to provide additional proofs. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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