Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 147 of 301 (282992)
01-31-2006 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iamaelephant
01-31-2006 6:35 PM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
I could go on forever, but frankly I don't see the point. In the latter half of this thread you have done nothing to argue your point against people who contradict your view, resorting instead to glib remarks and spamming you opinion relentlessly without any refutation or new material.
There's a rule somewhere about attacking the argument not the person. We all thread over the line at times, but seldom have I seen such haste. Faith has built up a record of respect amongst many here. Not all agree with her views (most don't in fact) and when they attack her they have usually earned the right to give as good as they get. You haven't.
I'm not Admin, so you can tell me where to go - just registering a personal objection
Premise 1
The universe was created by an all-loving, omniscient, omnipotent God who is incapable of creating a universe with death, disease and suffering
Premise 2
We live in a universe with death, disease and suffering
Conclusion
Well It's fairly self explanatory...
One might pose the biblical argument which indicates that God made the Earth without any disease or death or pain or suffering. He handed dominion of it over to man in that state. A not unimportant issue. And man went messing with programming code - after specifically being warned not to. That the result was a mess is down to man - not God. God being incapable of creating a universe with death (if that so be) clashes not with a perfect world buggered up by by man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iamaelephant, posted 01-31-2006 6:35 PM iamaelephant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 01-31-2006 9:01 PM iano has not replied
 Message 149 by iamaelephant, posted 01-31-2006 9:11 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 173 of 301 (283070)
02-01-2006 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by iamaelephant
01-31-2006 9:11 PM


Apology
Your right. It wasn't an attack on Faith herself. I was a little annoyed at someone stepping in with such brashness when they hadn't actually taken part and appeared to make their first contribution to the discussion in the form of a sniper attack. But if the kettle is black then so it the pot. My apologies and welcome to EvC
ps: it wasn't really a snipers attack either - you did provide argument which is not the characteristic of a sniper
This message has been edited by iano, 01-Feb-2006 12:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by iamaelephant, posted 01-31-2006 9:11 PM iamaelephant has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 194 of 301 (283279)
02-01-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Modulous
02-01-2006 11:37 AM


Re: quote mining
Deleted content
This message has been edited by iano, 02-Feb-2006 12:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2006 11:37 AM Modulous has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 205 of 301 (283338)
02-02-2006 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jar
02-01-2006 8:06 PM


Re: on Belief
Belief is completely a matter of Faith. There is no hard evidence as can be found in any of the sciences, cannot be. Afterall, GOD is something which cannot be tested, observed, replicated or subjected to peer review.
This is true. The question is where does the faith come from and what does it entail. You appear to argue below that is comes from you.
It really is that one day, someone does say that they believe in GOD. They may have various reasons; in my case I look at the Universe, the fact that the rules seem to be consistent across everything we've observed, the absolute wonder of Evolution and the system that lead to the magnificant variety and malleability of the life we see, lead me to my belief in GOD, but it is simply a matter of Faith, not something I can prove.
If your belief does indeed arrive from within, then it seems to be a matter of deduction. There is no mention of any revelation from God in aiding you to come to this conclusion. Presumably you do not know he exists
Others, me included, would say that faith and belief are things that God gives us. He is the one who enables a person to believe in him. He does this by revealing himself to the person.
belief from within vs belief from without. Different things. Faith in the latter can be seen as a highway along which God transports knowledge about himself to the believer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 8:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-02-2006 10:28 AM iano has replied
 Message 209 by jar, posted 02-02-2006 11:07 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 230 of 301 (283522)
02-02-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by macaroniandcheese
02-02-2006 10:28 AM


Re: on Belief
what proof have you that your belief does not come from within? i would argue that that in itself is a matter of faith. but please. prove me wrong.
Before I listen to your argument could you prove to me there is an 'I' to argue in the first place. You know you exist, but you can't prove it to me. My 'proof' sits in the same category as knowing I exist - I know it simply because I know it. Proving it to someone else - though at first flush, desirable, is not all that vital to me. But if I am wrong then I cannot know I exist either. As Crash says elsewhere "you gotta get out of bed sometime" and presuming I exist, and that there is an objective reality around me, is that place.
My knowing God exists sits above any empirical possibility of proving it just as my knowing I exist sits beyond any empirical possibility of proving it.
All I can say is go find out for yourself. If you come to know it then you can attempt to decide for yourself what it is. But the last place you will look in aiding you to decide is empirical proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-02-2006 10:28 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-02-2006 9:56 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 231 of 301 (283524)
02-02-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by jar
02-02-2006 11:07 AM


Re: on Belief
jar writes:
Regardless of whether it is a matter of deduction or what you call revelation, it is still all internal.
We begin with an assertion
While you very likely believe that there was a revelation from God, you cannot know that.
We continue with an assertion...
You can believe it, believe it very strongly, but there can be no evidence of that external impartation.
If God exists, could he impart the evidence to a person that he exists in such a way a person knows that he exists? Patently he can. is there a requirement that such impartation by God must be measurable empirically. Patently not.
There is no such thing as belief from without unless you can provide some way that it can be tested and independently verified.
That is a philosopical statement. Who has verified this, empirically. We know that God says that he will come and take up residence in certain people. He didn't say that this would be empirically verifiable. Well he did "by their fruits ye shall know them" But he didn't say how you could separate the sheep from the goats to empirically measure them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by jar, posted 02-02-2006 11:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 02-02-2006 7:18 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 233 of 301 (283534)
02-02-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
02-02-2006 7:18 PM


Re: on Belief
Oh, but he did, we've been over that. LOL
Maybe we should include Matt 25 alongside Nazism as subjects that are sure to be referred to if a web conversation goes on long enough.
That is a philosopical statement.
Not really. It's a statement of fact. Until you can provide some evidence that impartation exists there is simply no reason to assume its existence.
Your simply repeating the same point.
There is no such thing as belief from without unless you can provide some way that it can be tested and independently verified.
so I ask again. Were is the verification that empiricism is the only way to determine if things exist or not? Clearly empiricism cannot verify empiricism. That would be circular reasoning
{abe} Lets leave it Jar. We're hauling off topic and there aren't many posts left. Reply if you like and I'll read and not respond...here
This message has been edited by iano, 03-Feb-2006 12:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 02-02-2006 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 02-02-2006 7:54 PM iano has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024