If prayers go unanswered....?

That doesn't say God is all-loving. He loves the world but I'm confident he doesn't love all that goes on in it. And who is "us"?Love is only mentioned in the bible, between believers and in confident most times.You think the OT is another God. That's your problem. You have a view that God is loving but not just and willing. But take the flood and Sodom and Gomorah for instance, very good examples of how God enforces righteousness when "every thought of their heart was evil".As for ill babies, many are healed, others aren't because of heavenly destinations. That's all that's left because Christ said wars and major devastations "must needs be" and "do not fret", and Christ loved his disciples did he not? Yet he told them they'd be handed over to government and killed. Do you think he loved them? He certainly did. So those he loved most were killed.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 09:27 AM

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Those people don't believe in Christ, so how can they be healed.

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Because God is all powerful and all merciful, maybe?

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Christ didn't tell me to ask for most of these things and I'm hard pressed as to why people of secularist nature assume that the big magic omni-being is some kind of prayer-junky we go to when we need anything.

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Didn't you just say that you HAVE had prayers answered? Now you say that He doesn't answer prayers.Which is it?

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I've heard this many times. Confirmation bias and post hoc reasoning.

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It's clever but not conclusive logically because there is no way to discern the difference.

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EXACTLY!!You can't tell the difference.Therefore, you cannot claim that your prayers are being answered.

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However, if I ask Jesus to appear on my plate, and he does then I fail to see how that is not a specific request which is indeed a confirmed occurence and is not post-hoc.

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It would certainly be a specific request that was granted, and I would be extremely interested in exploring this ability of yours further, under normal experimental controls.

what you think is irrelevant. John says God loves the world so much he gave his only son. If you think 'the world' doesn't mean mankind, what do you think it means? the dolphins, the trees, what ? If it means anything other than mankind it doesn't make sense, what did God give his only son for ?! it's the same "us" that's used here:"...behold, what manner of love the father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God"-1 Jn 3:1and here:"...unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" -Rev 1:5.i.e. mankind I have no views on something that doesn't exist. I just conclude that the O.T describes a different God (possibly two) to the N.T ...so..we're back to the old 'God's mysterious plan' argument.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This is specifically concerning the misses though Shraff. I can certainly say that either God isn't there or the answer is "no". We know that if a specific request is made and answered then it's more realistic to say that it was from God.I can't tell the difference if I ask for something and I don't get it. Does it mean God doesn't exist or does it mean he said "no"? It means that I have no way of knowing, but I think the hits provide a way in which I can know = bad science, I concede. "That's my little scientist" - Contact. Not my ability tho Shraff, God's.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 10:05 AM

Hey Mike, Sounds abit selfish. Christ was amazingly altruistic, so I would think that praying for others would have been right up his alley. And surely the Pope, Jerry Falwell, and the members of their respective congregations believe in Christ and should be very receptive to prayers on thier behalf, and I would think they would have reason to feel that an earnest, selfless prayer would garner some sort of divine attention. Actually, thats not really what I was getting at. I think its pretty logical to think like that, but I was more interested in how these situations affect believers. In intense situations like I listed in my OP, people are praying for big specific things. No one is praying for the mundane, that wouldn't make sense, and instead are asking God for things that are out of thier control, and in these cases, pretty serious and pretty uncertain.So how will it impact a believer when their most serious prayers int he most serious situations seem to have no impact at all?

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It's not selling out if nobody's buying.

Hey jar, I don't think its that simple. I can say that there certainly have been evil people and evil acts, but I do not think that evil is required for good to be acknowledged. I think that good can stand alone without having evil to judge it against. I feel that suffering, which can be caused by evil or compeltely independent thereof, allows all the backdrop necessary for comprehending what is good.OT: Going by your signature, are you excited about the new LW&W movie coming out?

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It's not selling out if nobody's buying.

Hi. I am a believer, and so these aren't my serious prayers. (pope, wars etc)Come on, do you want me to pretend I care about the pope or an earthquake? No, I won't. I admitt I feel a slight sympathy, but the cold truth is that I can't be bothered praying for such things.Things people care about most are their families and people they know, because humans are relative fools. We apply meaning only when something means something "to us". Isn't that selfish? If I know you then I'll cry if you die, if I don't then news of your death will probably mean little. Sure, I will honestly have compassion because already I have conversed with you and now know you a bit. But people die everyday and I don't cry much of pray. I feel no ill will to anyone either.I could pretend to have the pope on my serious prayers list if you want, but then - the ill homeless person who isn't mentioned on tv is also going to die isn't he. And does mike give a sh**? Mike's honest enough to admitt that he's a relative fool who probably won't give a sh** unless he sees a two dollars per month sentimental appeal for homeless people on tv. If he doesn't then he'll be an ignorant ass like he is most of the time. Listen, some problems aren't our problem, like the supernova in space. It's a complicated issue this one, and I may appear cold, I'm truly not, I'm just the same as the other people who apply meaning when it suits them.So, yes - I do have a genuine love for babas though. "Mymonkeys" avatar has brought me joy because the baby reminds me of God and the child looks happy.I am the guiltiest. I mean, I've prayed for Brad Pitt. I've prayed for anyone and everyone, but I am consciously aware that the prayer will mean little because I know it will mean little to God because the prayer meant little to me. My spirit feels little when it's none of my business, but when I pray with fervor then I know that it's where God will be moving.In all honesty, I'd rather contribute something to a poor and hungred baba than pray for him to some extent. Because there are so many millions like him/her that the difference is small, and I might only feed one belly. But Christ said there would be sorrows and that we would always have the poor, and to love my neighbour. So it's a command to help practically aswell. I tell you what, if we were both at this moment not taking part in this forum and fed a belly each, do the math, how many bellies would be empty if the whole forum ACTUALLY cared?(edit; I concede that we do care somewhat for world events, I meant if the forum actually acted on loving their neighbour more than other activities)/This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 11:19 AM

Why? Why would God act? Why would he change his plan just because you asked him to?

Hi Mike, here's a bit of sunshine for this thread.This message has been edited by Monk, Thu, 03-31-2005 10:55 AM

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

You can guaruntee I'll smile everytime.

Would you accept a rewording to Good and Bad?And no, not excited at all. I have very low expectations for it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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This is specifically concerning the misses though Shraff. I can certainly say that either God isn't there or the answer is "no".

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Yes, and you cannot tell the difference, since the outcome is exactly the same.

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We know that if a specific request is made and answered then it's more realistic to say that it was from God.

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Not so at all.It could be that Thor is granting your requests even though you are praying to another, wrong, God, that doesn't actually exist.It could be that this prayed for thing would have happened anyway, regardless of your prayers.It could be that, along with praying, you actually took action in the real world to make the desired for event or outcome more likely to happen.Also, if you are not keeping extremely accurate records of how often your very specific prayers are answered compared to when they are not, then you have no way of knowing if the rate of "hits" is greater than chance would predict.

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I can't tell the difference if I ask for something and I don't get it.

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Correct.

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Does it mean God doesn't exist or does it mean he said "no"? It means that I have no way of knowing, but I think the hits provide a way in which I can know = bad science, I concede.

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As long as you this is poor logic, then have at it.

Shraff, specific requests aren't post-hoc. Remember that.Why would Thor answer my prayer if I asked Jesus Christ to heal me according to the way the bible states?Call him Thor or big-omnipotent dudeguy if you want. For now I'll accept that "God" has answered my prayers how I specifically requested.If someone asks for healing from a disease and they are healed, or the blind see then that's not caused by something else because that's just ignoring the fact that prayer has been succesfully answered. I've seen it many times, unbelievers simply say "oh well" when they observe an occurence, and carry on with their day.I suggest no prayer result would convince you becaue you arrive with doubt, the opposite to what is required according to the bible.If the bible says do this that and the other in order to bake a cake, and it's correct when you endeavour to do this that and the other, then it is highly logical that the God of the bible is real. Listen Shraff, chance can't allow anything without a Creator to create chance. Chance has never done anything, let alone answer my prayers. Chance and naturalism say that we went from primordial sludge to full eyed-critter via naturalistic mindless means.Chance didn't answer my prayer, God did. Chance didn't make me, God did, and chance isn't why there is a universe. That is just a farsical idea.

I think evil would be a better wording than bad for this discussion. 'Bad' just doesn't seem like strong enough a word. Hitler was evil...the egg salad is bad. I can work with you on the good/evil slant better than the good/bad. So lets go with your first notion of good and evil as prerequisits.

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It's not selling out if nobody's buying.