Biblical contradictions.

I believe I understand your problem with creationism. Many read the Bible and yet many arrive at different opinions as to when the earth was created. But do they not all arrive at the same conclusion, that being, that the earth and its inhabitants were indeed created by a Creator? No one, not even the feeble minded, could read the Bible and come to any other logical conclusion than that the earth and its inhabitants were indeed created by a Creator and that neither the earth nor its' inhabitants are simply the result of chance plus time.I guess it is a comfort to evolutionists that scientists never, ever disagree on any issues concerning the age of the earth, let alone the process of evolution and its inevitable outcome.
(Insert sarcastic laughter here!)It almost makes me wish I was an evolutionist so that I could share in the unanimity of thought that every evolutionist must enjoy.
(Insert uncontrollable sarcastic laughter here!)CHANCE PLUS TIME = EVOLUTION.....................MAN, WHAT A CONCEPT!
Where do I sign up? Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Percipient:
I think I said at the outset, if not in this thread then in a very similar one, that my interest in the Creation/Evolution debate stems from Creationist efforts to have their views represented in public school science classrooms. Creationism exists solely to legitimize as science an inherently religious viewpoint. I probably have nothing worthwhile to disagree about with those who do not support these efforts.

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So would it be correct to say that you do not want Creationist views taught in public school science classrooms? If so then I'm surprised, because I thought the point of many of your posts, for example the one about Job, was that the Bible contains scientific information, which is traditional Creationist fair.

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--Percy

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You would be correct to say that I do not promote the teaching of creation or evolution in the public school unless they are offered as electives that the student may request or reject. I was taught about evolution in school from the elementary level on up. Field trips were held weekly, and at least one of those per month was a trip to the science museum. While most of the children, myself included, found the trip to the museum to be a fascinating adventure, very few of us were willing to accept the concept of evolution as it was presented to us.Evolution simply made no sense when examined in light of all the other concepts of knowledge and education that we were being exposed to. Mathematics, chemistry, biology. All were presented to us. All were well ordered. Evolution was the exception. Evolution had no order. Evolution made no sense. Evolution still makes absolutely no sense. With its' reliance upon chance plus time, the concept of evolution becomes a non sequitur. Chance plus time always results in nothing other than lost time. Order never comes from chaos without an intervening intelligence.Should both evolution and creation be taught in school? Yes, I think that they should both be offered. It makes no difference that one or the other claims to be supported by science. Neither teaching should be required and neither should be taught as science. Both are firmly rooted in religious beliefs. Science deserves better! Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Percipient:
Oh, I see. Your view is that while Creationism isn't scientific, neither is evolution.

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But why do you think evolution is rooted in religious beliefs? Many Creationists accuse evolution of being inherently atheistic, and it's not uncommon for new members to think that evolutionists don't believe in God. How can there be an atheistic philosophy rooted in religious beliefs? I wish Creationists would make up their minds.

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--Percy

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Are you seriously suggesting that one creationist speaks for the entire body of creationist thinking? Would you also contend that one evolutionist speaks for the entire body of evolutionary thought or that one scientist speaks for the entire body of scientific thought? Also, it is not that I "think evolution is rooted in religious beliefs", I know with a certainty that it is and this is a well established fact that has been discussed many times before.Evolutionary thought is not some new concept just thought up in the last few centuries. And as for there being atheists who have latched onto the TOE, this fact should not be surprising anymore than the fact that pagans latched onto Christianity very heavily during the reign of Constantine. Now I realize that evolutionists have an aversion to the thought that their beliefs are rooted in paganism, and I can understand that. They prefer to think of evolution as being purely scientific even though it cannot possibly hope to exist within a truly scientific realm.Nothing will ever change the fact that both concepts of creation and evolution have extremely deeps roots in religious beliefs. Everyone should be familiar with the terms "Mother Earth", "Father Sky", and "Spirit Winds" along with numerous other references which are the result of, or extensions of, earlier pagan beliefs in evolutionary thought. The reality that evolutionary thinking has itself evolved over the centuries does not erase the facts of its' beginning, which is undeniably religious in nature, and pagan at its' core.------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Joe Meert:
JM: Is now a good time or a bad time to discuss the polytheistic roots of Christianity?

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Cheers

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Joe Meert

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Considering that the only root of Christianity is Judaism, and considering that Judaism is most definitely monotheistic and not polytheistic, your question is bogus. Sorry Joe! Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

As to your first point, I said "Logical" conclusion. Your conclusion obviously does not qualify as being in the arena of logic.As to your second point, I said "Chance", not change.Enough said! Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:The possibility of species evolution only arose in the early 19th century.......You'll have to explain why you believe the existence of these phrases means that evolution has pagan roots.--Percy[/B][/QUOTE]Louis Trenchard More, in his book The Dogma of Evolution (Princeton University Press, 1925), provides a clear view of Greek thought after the death of Aristotle, as it gradually divided into the two schools of the Stoics and the Epicureans.The Epicurean philosophers were evolutionary atheists, believing in no kind of God. The Stoics were evolutionary pantheists, believing that everything is God. Neither left room for the idea of a transcendent creator.They were evolutionists, certainly of a different kind than Darwin, but evolutionists nevertheless, and their kind of thought dominated the Greek and Roman philosophy of the day and for many centuries. It had its effect on the great chain of being into the Middle Ages and up to the time just before Darwin.Evolution, however, did not begin with Aristotle. The early Greek philosophers, particularly the school of Miletus, were clearly evolutionary.Milton Munitz, Professor of Philosophy of Science at New York University, makes this comment in his book, Theories of the Universe: "The type of thinking initiated by the Milesian school of pre-Socratic thinkers -- Thales, Anaximander and Anaximenes -- in the sixth century B.C. elaborates the conception of a universe whose order arises out of a blind interplay of atoms rather than as a product of deliberate design; of a universe boundless in spatial extent, infinite in its duration and containing innumerable worlds in various stages of development or decay.This, says Munitz, is the line of thought which has continued to be the inspiration of all scientific thinking which renounces the notion of design in the understanding of the universe.Thales, described as probably the most influential of the Milesian philosophers, believed that all the components in nature "could be accounted for in terms of a single substance -- water". This notion that all life had its origins in a single basic substance goes back to the beginnings of written history. Evolution is (at least) as old as that. http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whostarted.htm"WHAT HAS BEEN IS WHAT SHALL BE, AND WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IS WHAT SHALL BE DONE. THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. IS THERE A THING OF WHICH IT IS SAID, ""SEE, THIS IS NEW""? IT HAS BEEN ALREADY, IN THE AGES BEFORE US. THERE IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF FORMER THINGS, NOR WILL THERE BE ANY REMEMBRANCE OF LATER THINGS YET TO HAPPEN AMONG THOSE WHO COME AFTER." ECCLESIASTES 1:9-11"Oh, ye foolish Stoics and Epicurians. You reason as though you possess the minds of children not yet near maturity. Fantasy is your playground, and foolishness is your playmate." E. H. Hall Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Quetzal:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jet:
CHANCE PLUS TIME = EVOLUTION.....................MAN, WHAT A CONCEPT!
Where do I sign up?

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Right here: Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Arizona, one of the best in the country. Take a course. Maybe then you will see what kind of a looney-tune cartoon version of evolution you're yammering about.

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**********************************************************************So, if it wasn't "chance" plus time, then was it "design" plus time? It had to be something plus time, so please, fill in the blank.
_________________________ + Time = Evolution Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

Originally posted by RedVento:
Um the fact that the Trinity exists shows the polythiestic nature of Christianity.***Could you possibly be more incorrect in your statement? I don't think so!***JetOriginally posted by RedVento:
Also, pagans flocked to Christianity because early christians adobted pagan practices. Dec 25th as Christmas is a perfect example..***You should study history a little more carefully. Pagans did indeed flock to Christianity after Constantine legalized it. And with the pagans came their pagan rites, rituals, and celebrations, including their celebration of the birthday of the pagan god Mithras, (among many others), said to have been born on December 25th.***JetOriginally posted by RedVento:
What a coincidence that the birth of Christ is celebrated on the exact day that the Roman Empire had its winter solstace festivities.***What coincidence? That pagans brought all of their various rites, rituals, and celebrations into the church? That they brought their pagan gods with them? (Insert sardonic laughter here!)Originally posted by RedVento:
The christmas tree was taken from germanic religions, and on and on.***Actually, this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual long before Christ was even born. History, man, study your history!***JetOriginally posted by RedVento:
Christians didn't convice converts they made it so converts would not have to change their ways, the early worshippers of Christianity were pagans who had to make no changes once they became christian.***You failed ancient history, didn't you! Otherwise you couldn't possibly have your facts so screwed up. History man, history! Take a refresher course. You desperately need it!***Jet Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

Originally posted by Percipient:
This is an odd tack to take given that you restated pretty much what RedVento had already said while at the same time claiming he was wrong.***RedVento is wrong, and if you carefully read what I posted you will see that I stated as much.***JetOriginally posted by Percipient:
You only differed about decorating the tree, and I think most people are familiar with the supposed Germanic origins of that tradition, while I've never heard of the tradition being coincident with early Christianity.***Again, carefully read my post. I differed with RedVento on all of the erroneous statements that were made, which made up the bulk of RedVentos' post. Also, I stated that "this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual ""long before Christ"" was even born."
"Before" Christ obviously means before Christianity.***JetOriginally posted by Percipient:
I guess we all need a refresher course in "History according to Jet." ***No, just a refresher course in actual history would be all that is needed. No revisionist history allowed.***Jet Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

If you search long enough, you will be able to find thousands of similar examples of revisionist history, such as you have done in your post. Here is another example."Hebrew teachings do not specify that the Messiah would be born of a virgin; the very idea is alien to Jewish expectations of who the Messiah would be. Quite contrary to the Hellenized Jesus "there is nothing in the Jewish sacred books to suggest that the Messiah or anyone else was, or was to be, born of a virgin." http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.htmlIt seems that some individuals have never read the Isaiah Scrolls. It would probably be wise for them to do so before making foolish and inaccurate statements concerning Hebrew teachings, and thereby making fools of themselves in the process. Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

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Originally posted by Percipient:

Jet writes:

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RedVento is wrong, and if you carefully read what I posted you will see that I stated as much.

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What you and RedVento said was pretty much in agreement. Early Christianity picked up pagan practices, making it more appealing to pagans. It was a two way street. Christianity influenced the pagans, and the pagans in turn influenced Christianity.

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Also, I stated that "this practice of decorating a tree was a well established pagan ritual ""long before Christ"" was even born."

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I'll bet no one's ever heard of this pagan ritual, while we *have* heard of the supposed Germanic origins of tree decorating. You can read about this almost anywhere on the web. For example, at newhampshire.com it says, "Germany is also credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition in the sixteenth century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes."

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Maybe the popular account is wrong, maybe there *is* more to the story, but so far all you've done is declare, "I'm right, read your history." You've mastered the bluster, now how about some actual information. You have to show not only that such a pagan ritual existed, but also the line of descent from then to today.

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You seem to have missed my message 194. No need to reply if you're tired of the issue, but you were trying to make the point that evolution is rooted in religious beliefs and is actually pagan in origin.

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--Percy

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Oh how you must love the strawman and truly adore the tinman. First you blatantly attempt to misrepresent my point of view by perverting what I actually posted. Then you imply I did not respond to the "evolution is rooted in religious beliefs" conversation, which you know full well that I did. You simply did not care for my reply, a reply which is historically correct, unlike some of the revisionist history that certain evolutionists have been trying to pass off as accurate history. While I have your attention, I would just love for you to point out the scripture(s) that supports your statement under your picture of the week.

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Your statement reads as follows:
"If the universe is actually billions of years old, then why would God describe it in the Bible as only thousands of years old."

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Please offer the chapter(s) and verse(s) that supports your statement regarding Gods' description of the age of the universe. I'll wait while you look them up. Oh, and as for your tree decorating dilema, may I suggest that you read the book of Jeremiah. You may then have a better understanding as to the time period in which you should be researching history. Perhaps then you will give up this silly "the Germans started it" nonsense. Really, the limited knowledge of history that some evolutionists are privy to is most difficult to fathom.

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Shalom

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Jet

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"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet

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"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."

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Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

quote:

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Originally posted by Percipient:

Jet writes:

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It seems that some individuals have never read the Isaiah Scrolls. It would probably be wise for them to do so before making foolish and inaccurate statements concerning Hebrew teachings, and thereby making fools of themselves in the process.

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The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy ("...a virgin shall conceive...") isn't unequivocal in interpretation. The Hebrew word almah has two definitions: young woman and virgin. Which definition of the term was meant is uncertain. It's a popular topic widely addressed on the net, for example A Virgin-Birth Prophecy? arguing for "young woman" and The Virgin Birth of Christ arguing for "virgin".

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--Percy

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Actually, the most widely recognized, and grammatically accurate translation is "Young Maiden" and not young woman. And if you do an honest word study, (heavy emphasis on "honest"), you will have to agree that the term "Maiden" always means "Virgin" and can never mean a non-virgin. Don't take my word for it. Do the study for yourself, just as I did. And keep it honest.

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Shalom

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Jet

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"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet

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"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."

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Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

You can read the Isaiah Scrolls online. http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

quote:

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Originally posted by Percipient:
Except for you pinning the evolutionist adjective on them, these ancients have no relationship whatsoever to evolutionary theory.

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In order to make your point, I think you have to show how the early developers of evolutionary thought drew upon the ideas of those you mention and incorporated those ideas into evolutionary theory.

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Another question would be what concepts in modern evolutionary theory can you demonstrate are pagan in origin?

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--Percy

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***I pinned the "evolutionist adjective" on them? Um, okay, if you say so! Too bad history doesn't agree with you. And talk about semantics! Evolutionary theory is evolutionary theory, modern or ancient, regardless of how much window dressing you put on it. As I have stated in earlier posts, the fact that modern day evolutionists have added a few new twists to the concept of evolution in an attempt to distant themselves from their ancient counter-parts, (and in some cases, even to distant themselves from some Darwinian concepts), evolutionists are evolutionists, evolution is evolution, and the sacred TOE has its' roots so deeply entrenched in pagan beliefs that no amount of time, nor continuous yet futile attempts at revisionist history will ever change that fact. Evolutionists can sing the denial song all they want. It won't change the facts of history. But don't feel bad Percy. It you can't accept the fact that the TOE is pagan in its' origin, that is fine by me. Some Christians can't accept the fact that Christmas and Easter are also pagan in their origins, and that is fine with me as well. Neither you, nor they can change the facts of history, and that is also just fine with me.***Jet Shalom ------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!Jet posted:
While I have your attention, I would just love for you to point out the scripture(s) that supports your statement under your picture of the week.Your statement reads as follows:
"If the universe is actually billions of years old, then why would God describe it in the Bible as only thousands of years old."Please offer the chapter(s) and verse(s) that supports your statement regarding Gods' description of the age of the universe.Percy responds:
It is the interpretation of YECs that according to the Bible the world can only be thousands of years old. This YEC belief is the foundation of the entire Creation/evolution debate.***OK, Percy, which is it. Is it your statement under the picture of the week that is correct, with "God" giving a discription of the universe as being only thounsands of years old, or is it your statement that this is what YECs claim the age of the universe is. One can hardly justify your giving God the credit for describing of the age of the universe as being thousands of years old if the description is actually the work of some YECs. And what of the statements and beliefs of the OECs? Are they not also involved in the debate? I know that I am, and I am definitely an OEC.***JetJet posted:
Oh, and as for your tree decorating dilema, may I suggest that you read the book of Jeremiah. You may then have a better understanding as to the time period in which you should be researching history.Percy replied:
The entire book? You want to narrow it down a bit for me there, Jet?***Now I wonder why you chose to post and comment only on the part of my post suggesting you read Jeremiah, totally ignoring the second sentence, (which I have graciously reposted), regarding the time period I felt you should be using while researching history. You wouldn't be trying to misrepresent what I suggested you do, would you?***JetPercy:
I wasn't disputing whether pagans decorated trees. What I was questioning was whether this was the origin of decorating Christmas trees. Religioustolerance.org discusses the Jeremiah 10:2-4 reference (will I always have to dig out your Biblical references for you?), but still says, "The Christmas tree tradition dates back to Western Germany in the 16th century."

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***Must I always do your honest historical research for you?***Jet

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http://www.alittlechristmasmagic.com/solsticex.htmlThe ancient Romans celebrated Saturnalia, beginning December 17th. Saturnalia honored the god of agriculture, Saturn. This was a time of feasting, gift-giving, and visiting. Evergreen trees were covered
with fruit and other decorations, and candles were popular gifts. Elements of Saturnalia can be seen in Winter Solstice and other Winter celebrations today.Winter Solstice is a time of rejoycing. The Mother Goddess and the Horned God are both honored. In ancient times, people also celebrated the importance of the Mother Goddess during winter. The Goddess was associated with groves of pine trees. During winter, people would decorated the groves with small gifts for the goddess, as well as candles and lights to symbolize the sun.***Even the childrens' section of a library contains more accurate information than you were willing to post. Imagine the amount of information available to you in the adult section. It's amazing what you can find when you do honest historical research. Try it. You might actually like it!***Jet Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow