I cannot so callously excuse the act by appeal to and appoval from a higher power but must live or die with the error on my own.Such is the nature of responsibilty in my eyes.It is the same responsibilty that led me to long ago reject the Christian stance of accepting Christ's sacrifice since I will not have another suffer for my actions.
Christ has ALREADY suffered for your actions. Now it is your choice to accept his sacrifice or reject it. Why would you suffer the consequences of your actions and go to hell rather than accepting Christs' freely and lovingly offered gift of forgiveness and go to heaven?
Before I gave up on the sense of God as real I thought that such a gift must be a test to see if men would rather sacrifice another than take an account of their own actions and the subsequent punishment for themselves since I thought that was the measure of a true mans character.I chose responsibility rather than placing my sins upon an innocent man.
You unfortunately percieved this incorrectly. It is not a test of your character (everyone has already failed that countless times). It is simply a gift. A free gift you and everyone else do not even deserve, but is being offered anyways. A gift you can choose to accept or reject. A gift of eternal life with God in heaven. You say you would rather choose responsibilty for your actions - as if that will help you in the long run. At least you recognize that you do deserve a punishment for your actions. Now you must decide if you will accept Christs' offer to take that punishment away or not. Christ longs for you to do so, He entreats you to accept it, but in the end it is your choice. Please, please think about this and reconsider your earlier decision.
Not to worry. If you try your best and really try to "Love others as you love yourself", GOD will understand and forgive. You don't even have to ask.
No, NO, NO! This is NOT what Jesus taught!
Jesus said this in John 3:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
This does not say "God will understand" or something like that. It all hinges on believing and trusting in Jesus. If you do, good, if you don't, nothing, not all the good intentions in the world or trying your best to follow the golden rule, will save you. The gift of eternal life must be accepted by each individual; it is not automatically given to all.
If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
You know that John was considered heritical for many years. It is still the least Christ like of any of the Gospels and certainly bigotted and brutal. As I have said in many threads, IMHO many, many Atheists will enter heaven long before so called Christians like Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson or Hal Lindsey.
Yes, Jesus is God. He said so himself. Many times.
So you don't like John? How about Matthew?
< !--UE-->"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."[/qs]"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." [/qs]
Jesus said there are two great commandments, "Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself".
He went on, several times to say that actions can be the eqivalent of love.
Matthew 25 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
So Atheists who actually are christ like will do better than many that profess and pray. He did not cleanse the temple of the irreligious, but rather the religious.
< !--UE-->"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." [/qs]"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [/qs]"actions can be the eqivalent of love. [/qs]
Therefore, atheists will not do better than those who profess; they will not even go to heaven, no matter how much they followed the two great commandments.
As a Christian, I disagree with that sentiment and if you would like to start a thread on it, would be happy to discuss it with you.
But back towards the topic. Do you agree that there are no absolute morals or still want to try to show some examples of such Moral Absolutes?
Ok, ok. Yes, we are off-topic. I would like to open a thread with you discussing the claims of Jesus regarding entrance into heaven, his claims of being God, etc beause I think these matter are of fundamental importance to the Christian faith.
In the meantime...
A moral absolute: Do not murder. (Murder is not the same as killing, by the way. The Hebrew and Greek words used in both the OT and NT are for murder, not for killing. Killing is justifiable in many instances.) This moral absolute applies to all people in every situation at all times.
If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
Well, let's look at the scenario tha Sidelined proposed.
A foreign country has sent its troops in to remove a threat they say resides here. I am but a shopkeeper who works long hours to feed a family who,while I was working,died as a result of a bombing run by this occupying force. I am not a violent man and only wished to live in peace but my heart was full of grief and when I saw the soldier beating on a neighbour friend of mine I grabbed a metal pipe and hit him over the head and then I kept hitting in anger and subsequently caused him to die.I am so sorry and I no longer know what was right or wrong about the action but only that I now must live alone with loss and sorrow.
Now it is your choice to accept his sacrifice or reject it. Why would you suffer the consequences of your actions and go to hell rather than accepting Christs' freely and lovingly offered gift of forgiveness and go to heaven?
Such is your point of view not mine. I am no lost sheep nor am I someone looking for forgiveness.It is also prudent when gifts are freely offered to be wary.Temptation is a powerful tool if you get my drift.
You say you would rather choose responsibilty for your actions - as if that will help you in the long run
You misunderstand me I am not looking to escape my responsibility which is what I find the central tenet of christianity to be.Give your sins to christ and your reward is heaven that is powerful incentive to do the very opposite which is to avoid your responsibility for those questionable acts and impulses that one follows in their lives.Behold your next sentence.
At least you recognize that you do deserve a punishment for your actions. Now you must decide if you will accept Christs' offer to take that punishment away or not.
As I said the central tenet of christianity is just this very emphasis upon absolving yourself of whatever responsibilty you have by choosing to place the burden on the very God you claim to love.
It is not something that you need to save me from since I long ago dropped the notion of a creator God and now see it as being the likely product of human frailty rather than any actual supernatural being.I am content with life as it unfolds and I have no fear of an end to it.
A foreign country has sent its troops in to remove a threat they say resides here. I am but a shopkeeper who works long hours to feed a family who,while I was working,died as a result of a bombing run by this occupying force. I am not a violent man and only wished to live in peace but my heart was full of grief and when I saw the soldier beating on a neighbour friend of mine I grabbed a metal pipe and hit him over the head and then I kept hitting in anger and subsequently caused him to die.I am so sorry and I no longer know what was right or wrong about the action but only that I now must live alone with loss and sorrow.[/qs]
Yes, murder was involved. The shopkeeper should only have applied the neccessary force to stop the beating of his neighbor, not kill the soldier.
If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
Such is your point of view not mine. I am no lost sheep nor am I someone looking for forgiveness.It is also prudent when gifts are freely offered to be wary.Temptation is a powerful tool if you get my drift.
[/qs]
Yes, that is my point of view and also the Bible's point of view. Based on what the Bible says, you need forgiveness or you will go to hell. Therefore, you should be looking for forgiveness if you don't want to go there. Also, what is there to "be wary about" in this offer? Freely offered gifts are given all the time: Christmas, birthdays. etc. One is not wary when accepting these gifts.
You misunderstand me I am not looking to escape my responsibility which is what I find the central tenet of christianity to be.Give your sins to christ and your reward is heaven that is powerful incentive to do the very opposite which is to avoid your responsibility for those questionable acts and impulses that one follows in their lives.Behold your next sentence.[/qs]
Here is what you just said: The central tenet of Christianity is to escape your resonsibility [for your sins]. I agree. But then your next sentence says that avoiding your responsibility by giving your sins to Christ is the exact opposite. What? How is it opposite when it is the same? You say Christianity is A, and doing A is the exact opposite of A. A being escaping your responsibilty of sin. That makes no sense.
However I think that might be misreading your sentence. Did you mean that Christianity is taking resonsibilty for your own actions? That is not true. Christianity is giving your responsibility to Christ.
It is not something that you need to save me from since I long ago dropped the notion of a creator God and now see it as being the likely product of human frailty rather than any actual supernatural being.I am content with life as it unfolds and I have no fear of an end to it. [/qs]
Well, if you don't believe God exists then, yes, you don't need to be "saved." But if God does exist and Christianity is true, then you DO need to be saved. Why do you believe God does not exist? (Should we talk about this in another thread?)
If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
No, he was engaging in an act of war, an act of killing, not murder. He did not kill them out of anger. He had a valid reason to - he had been told by his military officers to do so in order to remove a threat.
In this scenarios, was the shopkeepers family the threat or did the bomb accidently kill them?
If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
quote:Based on what the Bible says, you need forgiveness or you will go to hell. Therefore, you should be looking for forgiveness if you don't want to go there.
Which do you think is more important to God; that you take unearned forgiveness from Him when you have wronged another human being, or that you earn forgiveness from the human being you have wronged?
I know which one I would consider more impressive.
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