|
Author
|
Topic: Moral Relativism
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Its all relative! Are you absolutely certain?
I am absolutely sure there are absolutes. What are those absolutes?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Nope
Let's stick to the topic, moral relativism.
It is wrong to murder, rape, cheat, steal, lie, worship idols, etc... Did you ever see Shoes of the Fisherman?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Moral Relativism
How do you possibly make the transition between these two mutually exclusive statements.
Moral relativism, carried to its logical conclusion, says that no moral absolutes exist, that our feelings of morality are simply produced by society. and...
Therefore, these feelings have no real meaning and need not be followed if they interfere with your own personal happiness.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Nope
The film brings up an interesting point that I'd like your opinion on. Kiril Lakota is in conclave electing a new Pope. During discussion with other Prelates he recites a tale from the time when he was a prisoner in a Siberian Labor Camp. He once stole some bread to feed another dying inmate.
It is wrong to murder, rape, cheat, steal, lie, worship idols, etc... Are you sure?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Moral Relativism
Do you see how I made the transition now? And why this philosophy is so insidious? No, I don't see how you made the transition and I can also show you that even Christianity has tossed out Moral Absolutes. Read Leviticus lately? How about Exodus and Judges?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Moral Relativism
Please explain why you think there is no transition between the statements and how they are mutually exclusive. Standards are either societal or individual. If you accept the first then the second is excluded.
please show how "Christianity has tossed out Moral Absolutes." Certainly. How do you feel about selling your daughters? Do you eat seafood? Should it be okay for me to have slaves as long as they are not from the US? Have you ever gotten a haircut or worn wool blend clothes?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Moral Relativism
So, the moral standards were relative and societal. The Hebrews as a society set standards that were different than other societies around them, and we see different moral standards today than 2000 years ago or 4000 years ago. As to societal standards being changed to individual standards, that happens under any system. But society reigns that trend in. But let's look at the example that I am also discussing with Dawg. Would you say that not stealing is an absolute moral standard?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Nope
That DAWG won't hunt. 
I am not saying that a particular action in a particular situation may or may not be right or wrong. On the contrary, there is no grey area. I am saying that in every situation there is a definate right and definate wrong that must be judged based on circumstances. It requires humility, wisdom, and an anchor to truth (the Bible) to correctly divide right from wrong. How much more relativistic can you get than saying that right or wrong depends on the time, place and extenuating circumstances? You go even further and say that "I am saying that in every situation there is a definate right and definate wrong that must be judged based on circumstances." So every act is right or wrong depending on, in your own words, circumstances. But I believe we can all agree that determining right from wrong requires a moral foundation.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Nope
First, I don't think there are very many basic rules, and those I considered in answering this are far more general than the absolutes others might prefer. The Golden Rule from Christianity, Judaism and Islam is one such example. This same rule appears within just about every moral system from Christianity, to Atheism, to Wicca. If you use it as a foundation stone, the conundrums Schraf and I laid out are resolved. In addition, as I said, this is common to every moral system I have examined. Some examples:
Bah' World Faith:
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah Buddhism: "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18 Confucianism: "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23 "Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3 Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" The Wiccan Rede There are many, many other examples but I think these are enough to show the point. If I had to pick one defining difference or characteristic, I would say that empathy is the single most important trait. The problem is that when religion or belief (and I added belief because a political or social belief beyond simply religious ones can lead to the same situation) becomes exclusive as opposed to inclusive, people tend to change the definition of others. Others are excluded. It is okay to kill them because they are not like us. It is okay to make them slaves because they are not like us. So I would say that the basis of determining right and wrong rests on the Golden Rule and empathy.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by sidelined, posted 08-02-2004 2:36 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Nope
see above.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by sidelined, posted 08-02-2004 3:21 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Nope
I am so sorry and I no longer know what was right or wrong about the action but only that I now must live alone with loss and sorrow. See above.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by sidelined, posted 08-02-2004 3:48 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Nope
Great question. Let me wander for a moment and hopefully, the path will lead to a clearing. The situation you outlined is the type of snapshot that is really most common. We have way too little information to make any judgements, we have no idea of the war, the causes or background, we know nothing about any of the individuals except that they are in opposition. We know that things broke down, that the situation had already moved into a lose-lose situation. We try to do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. but we never have the whole story, never have all the information we need to make the right decision. We struggle to do right. This is where religious folk have a slight advantage. You ask about living with the decision. One of the great advantages of my belief system is that I really believe that I have someone to help me carry such a load. I have the advantage of forgiveness. I have the support of being able to turn to Jesus and say, "Forgive me if I did wrong" and the knowledge that, if I am sincere, if I really did try to do best, I will be forgiven.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by sidelined, posted 08-02-2004 4:06 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
I know you don't want to hear this but...
sidelined writes: Ay there's the rub. I cannot so callously excuse the act by appeal to and appoval from a higher power but must live or die with the error on my own. Not to worry. If you try your best and really try to "Love others as you love yourself", GOD will understand and forgive. You don't even have to ask.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by sidelined, posted 08-02-2004 5:42 PM | | sidelined has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Nope
So do you believe that moral absolutes are taught in Christianity or not? Not in mainstream Christianity but they are taught in many of the fringe cults like the Fundamentalists and Literalists. The Golden Rule is a basic guideline, but as has been shown in the other posts in this thread, even there you cannot find absolutes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
General Nazort Is Jesus God?
No, NO, NO! This is NOT what Jesus taught! You and I disagree on that. You know that John was considered heritical for many years. It is still the least Christ like of any of the Gospels and certainly bigotted and brutal. As I have said in many threads, IMHO many, many Atheists will enter heaven long before so called Christians like Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson or Hal Lindsey.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
™ Version 4.2