|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’ | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Really? How, do you think? Are you saying that Sr. would have changed his opinion completely and would have invaded a sovereign nation to get it's oil? Do you think Sr. would have sent almost 1,000 American soldiers to their deaths for the oil? Do you think Sr., the former head of the CIA, would have been so gullible and dumb about the very shaky intelligence?
quote: Um, can you please provide the evidence that Iraq was a "grave and gathering danger to America and the World?" Hussein didn't even control his entire country! Right before 9/11 Colin Powel and Condi Rice didn't give Iraq a second thought, not considering it a threat at all. Also, the sanctions and disarmament had greatly diminished Iraq's capability to do anything to anybody, let alone America. There was no Taliban connection, either. Besides, I thought that the reason we invaded them is because they had WMD. The administration TOLD US THEY KNEW WHERE THE WMD WERE. They were lying.
quote: Um, there was plenty of notice before 9/11. Lots and lots. The administration just chose to ignore it and continue with plans to invent some reason to invade Iraq.
quote: Decisive victories? What planet do you live on? Where is Osama bin Laden? Are the warlords in Afghanistan gaining power again? (hint:yes) Was Iraq a hotbed of extremeist anti-American sentiment before we invaded? (hint:no) How about now? (hint:yes)
quote: Yes, all that without a plan. No plan beyond :"Let's go bomb 'em and get the oil, install some puppet government that we still control." This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-01-2004 08:21 AM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Really? You are looking for a reduction in our civil rights, including the right to not be held without representation, indefinitely, without trial? Are you looking for leadership which stops looking for the person who ordered the WTC bombings, named Osama bin Ladin, and in fact has stated that he doesn't care where he is? Are you looking for leadership that lies in order to garner support for a war that has absolutely no connection to Al Qaida or Osama bin Laden?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Hans Blix never told Bush that there was any evidence that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. If the Administration isn't going to listen to the experts, they obvviously were only interested in listening to people who told them wron information because it was what they wanted to hear. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1767468
The leaders of the United States and Britain failed to exercise "critical judgment" in going to war against Iraq a year ago despite the lack of hard evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, says Hans Blix, the former chief United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq. "If you sentence someone to death or you sentence someone to war, you'd better have some evidence," Blix tells NPR's Bob Edwards. "And we didn't feel there was evidence..." Blix, whose new book is called Disarming Iraq, says he became doubtful about the existence of Iraqi WMD in January 2003. He says U.N. inspectors visited locations in Iraq that intelligence had indicated "as places where there would be weapons. And in none of these cases did we find any weapons." quote: They said that they knew where the WMD were, even though the inspectors has been to all of those sites and didn't find any WMD. They also repeatedly made connections between the terrorists who flew planes in into the WTC and Hussein, even though Iraq had nothing to do with the attack. They did such a good job telling this lie that at one point a majority of Americans believed that the suicide terrorists were Iraqui, not Saudi. Where do you think the public got that mistaken idea?
quote: Actually, he said so in a speech, and I saw him say it on tape. I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him."- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02) quote: I can't wait to see what you make of those quotes.
...no connection to Al Qaida or Osama bin Laden? quote: Um, are you paying attention to the findings of the 9/11 commission? MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos No ‘collaborative relationship’ seenIt said that reports of subsequent contacts between Iraq and al-Qaida after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship, and added that two unidentified senior bin Laden associates "have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al-Qaida and Iraq." The report, the 15th released by the commission staff, concluded, We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al-Qaida cooperated on attacks against the United States.
...reduction in our civil rights... quote: Wrong. The Patriot act is already being abused by law enforcement, and US citizens are being held indefinately, without representation and without trial. That, my friend, is called the begining of repression and facism. http://abcnews.go.com/...20/conservatives_patriot030312.html
Some conservative groups are finding common ground with organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union and the Bill of Rights Defense Committee, expressing concerns about the effect that the USA Patriot Act and a possible follow-up law, the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, could have on civil liberties. Liberal critics have directed much of their worry at what they saw as an attack on immigrants' rights in the Patriot Act, the massive measure that was passed as the country was reeling from the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. More than 60 towns, cities and counties around the country have passed resolutions criticizing the act, some going so far as to instruct municipal employees including police not to assist federal agents in investigations that they believe violate the Constitution. Now, right-leaning groups such as the American Conservative Union, the Eagle Forum and Gun Owners of America say they are concerned that American citizens could also be victimized by what they say are unconstitutional law enforcement powers allowed by the Patriot and the potential enhancement act. The heart of the issue, according to conservatives, liberals and constitutional scholars, is the effect that USA Patriot has already had on issues of probable cause and due process, and that both of those concepts would be further eroded if the so-called Patriot II were adopted as it appears in the draft form. According to what is in the draft, if adopted it would allow the Justice Department to wiretap a person for 15 days without a warrant; federal agents could secretly arrest people and provide no information to their family, the media or their attorney until charges are brought, no matter how long that took; and it would allow the government to strip Americans of their citizenship for even unknowingly helping a group that is connected to an organization deemed to be terrrorist. It would also make it a crime for people subpoenaed in connection with an investigation being carried out under the Patriot Act to alert Congress to any possible abuses committed by federal agents. There is also no "sunset provision," which constitutional scholars say removes the element of congressional oversight and means lawmakers would have no way of compelling the Justice Department to prove that the powers provided in the act have not been abused. quote: Are they? Why do you think that? What is the evidence that would suggest this? And, anyway, I'd really like to know if you are comfortable with the government having the power to make people "disappear", to wiretap your home withpout a warrant, etc. Sound a lot like the KGB, doesn't it? Does the ends justify the means in the supposed "most free country in the world"? It doesn't to me. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-03-2004 07:09 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: First of all, you did not address my point about the poll in which the majority of US citizens believed that the nationality of the WTC terrorist bombers were Iraqi, not Saudi, because the Bush Administration repeatedly made the connection between 9/11 and invading Iraq in speeches and in the media in the run up to the war. Where do you think the public got that idea? Please answer that question this time instead of avoiding it. Second of all, I also showed you that he was informed by the international weapons experts that there was no evidence of Iraq having WMD. That makes them liars. Like I said, they listened to the "gurus" which told them what they wanted to hear, and ignored Hans Blix, the expert head of the international weapons inspectors who was actually inside Iraq, inspecting all of the sites. At the very least, Bush and his staff were grossly incompetant and were engaging in active self-delusion for ignoring Blix and taking as truthful Chalabi, now shown to be a corrupt con man, a single obviously forged document stating that Iraq was trying to secure enriched uranium, and several Iraqi defectors. I can't help but notice that you did not comment upon the 9/11 commission saying that there is no evidence that Iraq and Al Qaida were connected. Are you just going to ignore that? Let's also remember that Bush and Cheney strenuously resisted the 9/11 investigation and dragged their feet as much as they could in providing documents. Bush even refused to testify, and he wouldn't even talk to the commission without Cheney there. Let's also remember Richard Clarke, Bush's former counter-terrorism coordinator who said that Bush et. al. blatantly used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq: Former terrorism aide charges Bush manufactured case for Iraq war - World Socialist Web Site
Clarke’s interview and book are a scathing attack on the entire national security leadership of the Bush administration. I find it outrageous that the president is running for re-election on the grounds that he’s done such great things about terrorism, he said. He ignored it. He ignored terrorism for months, when maybe we could have done something to stop 9/11. According to Clark, in the initial discussions after September 11, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld called for bombing Iraq rather than Afghanistan, declaring that there were no good bombing targets in Afghanistan. Clarke wrote: I realized with almost a sharp physical pain that Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were going to try to take advantage of this national tragedy to promote their agenda about Iraq. Bush deserves no credit for his conduct in the weeks after September 11for which he received the adulation of the American mediaClarke said. Any leader whom one can imagine as president on September 11 would have declared a ‘war on terrorism’ and would have ended the Afghan sanctuary by invading, Clarke wrote in his book. What was unique about George Bush’s reaction was the decision to invade not a country that had been engaging in anti-US terrorism, but one that had not been, Iraq. There is also the former Bush speech writer, Frum, who says that the intent for the Bush administration to attack Iraq was in place long before 9/11.
quote: He wanted to go to war in Iraq long before 9/11. He used 9/11 to do that. There is no connection between 9/11 and Iraq. Iraq didn't have any WMD this time and was never, ever a threat to the US. Are you going to address the specific evidence I have provided over two posts now, or are you just going to ignore it?
quote: What evidence do you have to show that much or any effort to find bin Laden is currently being undertaken. As of last February, there were only 11,000 American troops in Afghanistan, and only one special forces unit is set to the task of finding bin Laden's support network and dismantling it. Here is a crucial bit of perspective for you. Emphasis added:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/international/...{Shortened display form or URL, to restore page width to normal - AM} Much of the timing now is driven by the weather: as winter snows melt, troops can navigate in the high mountain passes and trails where many Qaeda and Taliban members are believed to be hiding. When that moment arrived last year, many of the forces and American intelligence operatives now engaged in Afghanistan were tied up in Iraq. quote: Answer me one question, TC. Do you think the United States government should have the right to arrest you, detain you indefinitely without making any charges, notifying your family, lawyer, or the media, and anyone subpoenad in connection with your case is subject to prison time if they complain to congress about any abuses they suffer at the hands of law enforcement? Did you know that the Justice Department as requested that their biggest convictions, to date, connected to the "war on terror", be overturned, because new evidence has come to light which shows these people to be innocent of the charges? If the govenment can't get it right here, why do you want to give them the KGB-type powers you think are perfectly OK in a supposedly free society? We're free, except if we read certain library books? We're free, except if we are made to "disappear", taken away by the government with no due-process whatsoever?
quote: THEN WHY AREN't WE CONCENTRATING ON AL QAIDA? Why are we wasting billions of dollars, killing tens of thousands of people, in a war that is only good for oilmen and anti-American extremist recriters?
quote: If the terrorists have made you so afraid that you are willing to live in an increasingly facist, less-free country, then they have already won. This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-04-2004 05:03 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Then why did TJ rewrite the Bible, taking all of the miracles out?
quote: Ronald Reagan ballooned the size of government and also balooned the deficit. Clinton shrank the size of government and gave us a surplus. Bush Jr. has expanded the size of government and balooned the deficit again to the highest level it has ever been. Hmmmm, which party believes in smaller government and fiscal responsibility again?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Whatever, how did the public get the idea that the people who flew the planes into the WTC were Iraqi?
Also, do you not mind getting a tax increase while the rich get a tax decrease? Answer the questions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Whatever, how did the public get the idea that the people who flew the planes into the WTC were Iraqi?
Also, do you not mind getting a tax increase while the rich get a tax decrease? Answer the questions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
TC, a reply to message #515, please.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-07-2004 09:21 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I'm sorry, but nothing you wrote had anything to do with the questions I asked.
I'll ask them again, for what I think is around the 6th or 7th time: Whatever, how did the public get the idea that the people who flew the planes into the WTC were Iraqi? Also, do you not mind getting a tax increase while the rich get a tax decrease? Answer the questions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Just to make sure...
a reply to message #515 in this thread, please. You have left a great deal hanging, Change. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-07-2004 09:20 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...icles/A26519-2004Aug23.html
quote: Do you disagree with Bush now? and, BTW, the anti kerry swiftboaters are continuing to be proven wrong by official Navy documents, some written by the swifties themselves. MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
The Navy task force overseeing John Kerry?s swift boat squadron in Vietnam reported that his group of boats came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, incident that three decades later is being challenged by the Democratic presidential nominee?s critics.
The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry?s description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart. The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it ?an enemy initiated firefight? that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry?s. Task Force 115 was commanded at the time by retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the founder of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running ads challenging Kerry?s account of the episode.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yeah, like the Clinton administration was doing with Bin Laden up until he left office, and the Bush administration did nothing about after they got into office. BTW, can you explain what plans Iraq had to commit terror attacks upon the US? What is the evidence?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
A reply to message #515 if you please.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I know that reading through that much documentation and evidence is kind of a chore, but that's all part of being informed about the issues.
First of all, you did not address my point about the poll in which the majority of US citizens believed that the nationality of the WTC terrorist bombers were Iraqi, not Saudi, because the Bush Administration repeatedly made the connection between 9/11 and invading Iraq in speeches and in the media in the run up to the war. Where do you think the public got that idea? quote: Actually, the group most likely to hold the misconception that the people who flew the planes into the TWC were Iraqi, not Saudi,were Fox news viewers, which I very much doubt are mostly liberals. In fact, I would say that Fox News viewers are mostly conservative, and very conservative at that, wouldn't you? The group least likely to think that the bonbers were Iraqi were those who listened to NPR, typically listened to by democrats, intellectuals and liberals.
quote: No, which shows how skilled at manipulation they are. The news media, particularly Fox news, actually completely shirked their duty to be bullshit detectors and never raised the alarm bells about there being no connection between Al Quaida and Iraq. Bush and Co. repeatedly talked about 9/11 and Iraq in the same breath. They did this over and over again, and a cheerleader news media and their own gullibility led them down the garden path. Why, when the poll came out, didn't Bush put out a statement reminding everyone that almost all of the 19 bombers were Saudi, not Iraqi.
quote: Why not? He, along with Fox news, is the source of the misinformation.
Second of all, I also showed you that he was informed by the international weapons experts that there was no evidence of Iraq having WMD. That makes them liars. quote: No, of course not. He should have also listened to Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice and Richard Clarke, and others, all of whom were putting out reports directly before 9/11 which said that Iraq was not a threat to us at all and had been effectively defanged by the first Gulf war and the sanctions. All of a sudden, right after 9/11, Iraq became a major focus of the "war on terror", when just months before they were not considered dangerous to us at all?
quote: Strawman. You are inventing an argument that I never made.
At the very least, Bush and his staff were grossly incompetant and were engaging in active self-delusion for ignoring Blix and taking as truthful Chalabi, now shown to be a corrupt con man, a single obviously forged document stating that Iraq was trying to secure enriched uranium, and several Iraqi defectors. quote: I will admit that this is troubling for me regarding Kerry, but I also understand that the political climate in the country at that time made it virtually impossible to criticize anything Bush and Co. did, because doing so was immediately branded as "unpatriotic" or "unamerican" Do you admit that Bush and co. were grossly incompetant and self deluded, then?
I can't help but notice that you did not comment upon the 9/11 commission saying that there is no evidence that Iraq and Al Qaida were connected. quote: The commission is bipartisan.
quote: Um, I cut and pasted from direct quotes from the commission report. Did you read the link?
quote: ...well, right. What about that, Change?
quote: OK, so are you saying then that we can and should invade and overthrow the government of and occupy any and every country who's leadership ever meets with any group which might sometime in the future might possibly finance or sponsor any terrorist attack in the US? How insane is that? There are probably many dozens of countries right now, or more, that one could say that about. Why did we pick Iraq? Oil, maybe?
There is also the former Bush speech writer, Frum, who says that the intent for the Bush administration to attack Iraq was in place long before 9/11. quote: Um, Frum, a conservative Republican, freely admits that he was given the task to "justify a war in Iraq". It wasn't a contingency plan, it was an effore to justify, to SELL a war on Iraq.
quote: Really? Where has he been discredited? I'd love to see your evidence. You know, that stuff that you are supposed to present to support your assertions, like I have been doing and you have not been doing?
What evidence do you have to show that much or any effort to find bin Laden is currently being undertaken. quote: Right, which is why we should have put all of our effort into Afghanistan, joined with 30 other countries, instead of pulling troops away into Iraq.
quote: Are you saying that the most advanced, most powerful military in the world, combined with special forces units from 30 other countries, all bent upon finding Bin Laden, probably couldn't do it? I have confidence that they could have done it, and very nearly the entire world would have helped us do it. After all, Clinton was able to capture and bring to trial the original WTC bombers and they are in prison as we speak. But no, bush wanted to invade Iraq, so we LET BIN LADEN GO.
quote: I think it would look best of all to capture him, extradite him to a federal court in the US, convict and imprison him for the rest of his life in the United States of America, the country he hates the most in the world. Why do you think he's less dangerous in hiding, anyway? Al Qaida continues to be active.
THEN WHY AREN't WE CONCENTRATING ON AL QAIDA? quote: No, we aren't. We are concentrating on Iraq, not Afghanistan.
quote: No, we really can't. Didn't you read what I pasted from the article?: Much of the timing now is driven by the weather: as winter snows melt, troops can navigate in the high mountain passes and trails where many Qaeda and Taliban members are believed to be hiding. When that moment arrived last year, many of the forces and American intelligence operatives now engaged in Afghanistan were tied up in Iraq. We continue to lose opportunities to get Bin Laden because key operatives and forces were in IRAQ, not Afghanistan.
quote: No, of course not, but there are lots of countries which do this, not only Iraq. Why didn't we invade Pakistan, because we know that they actually DID furnish weapons to terrorists, was sympathetic to Al Qaida, and Pakistan has nuclear weapons?
Do you think the United States government should have the right to arrest you, detain you indefinitely without making any charges, notifying your family, lawyer, or the media, and anyone subpoenad in connection with your case is subject to prison time if they complain to congress about any abuses they suffer at the hands of law enforcement? Did you know that the Justice Department as requested that their biggest convictions, to date, connected to the "war on terror", be overturned, because new evidence has come to light which shows these people to be innocent of the charges? quote: You have not demonstrated that the risk of another terrorist attack is very great, though. Bush and Co. want you to constantly be afraid, but why don't they ever tell us what the threat is? That's because the more afraid the populace is, the greater chance they will be able to slip their facist police-state agenda under outr nose.
We're free, except if we are made to "disappear", taken away by the government with no due-process whatsoever? quote: Why do you want to know? Why is that relevant?
Why are we wasting billions of dollars, killing tens of thousands of people, in a war that is only good for oilmen and anti-American extremist recriters? quote: You mean like Saudi Arabia?
quote: Like the US, funding the Taliban and funding Saddam Hussein? You do realize that George Bush hosted the Taliban as guests when he was Govorner of Texas, and when he became president he began sending the Taliban federal aid money, don't you? We certainly knew that the Taliban was the most horribly oppressive fundamentalist Muslim government in the world, and that the Taliban had close ties with Bin Laden and Al Qaida, who we had long ago identified as a major terrorist threat to the US and had attacked us on our own soil in the first WTC bombing, but Bush was sending them foreign aid money. Bin Ladin must have been laughing his ass off when the towers fell. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-08-2004 11:01 PM
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024