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Author Topic:   New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 450 of 612 (138539)
08-31-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by RAZD
08-31-2004 2:47 PM


Re: And what does Bush say? (If he says it, it's a lie)
RAZD writes:
POVERTY HAS INCREASED EVERY YEAR OF HIS ADMINISTRATION
The economy is not "in the dumps", unemployment is not high, and poverty is not unusual coming out of a recession.
From Census stats:
U.S. Census Bureau: Page not found
I see nothing wrong with free speech and the SBV ads. I have heard these guys interviewed, and they seem pretty convincing in their accounts and their strong feelings. They also dispell some of the attempted distortions of their accounts in Kerry attempts to discredit them (i.e. Kerry campaign lies). Attacking SBV is the Democrats' attempt to take attention away from the facts of what Kerry did and said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 2:47 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 474 of 612 (139175)
09-02-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by crashfrog
09-01-2004 11:48 AM


Kerry has not been in leader position
crashfrog writes:
Kerry's been a firm and effective leader in many situations
You've got to be kidding. "Firm" and "effective"? That's spin.
Dick Cheney made a very good point about Kerry: He has NOT been experienced in true leadership position of any magnitude, and that may account for his flip-flopping. He did not run a business nor hold an office in a command position. Bush at least ran a business for awhile. In the Senate, Kerry was not in a position to actually make a decision. He just voted on things (and did not attend as many sessions as he should, nor be effective at convincing others to pass his legislative proposals).
To me, there is more risk of terrorism here and abroad with Kerry in the Whitehouse, because there is more chance that the terrorists can get away with something. I also see Iran, China and North Korea willing to take more risks of weapons development and aggression towards their weak neighbors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2004 11:48 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 1:24 PM ThingsChange has replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 476 of 612 (139181)
09-02-2004 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by RAZD
09-02-2004 10:02 AM


McCain is pandering to both sides
RAZD writes:
McCain wants something, badly
I think McCain is carefully constructing his words for his own ambitions, but I do think he is genuinely expressing his honest opinion that Bush is the better leader AT THIS ELECTION than Kerry.
McCain sees the 2008 election shaping up as Ms. Clinton versus whoever can beat her. He may be thinking that 2008 is his best and last shot at the White House. The Republicans may even step back a bit on anti-abortion stances just to keep a more liberal person out of the White House.
McCain is pandering to both sides. I don't really think he respects Kerry for his anti-Vietnam actions and words, but he knows he needs Democrat voters in 2008, since he may lose some ProLife voters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 10:02 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 478 of 612 (139282)
09-02-2004 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by RAZD
09-02-2004 1:24 PM


Re: Kerry has not been in leader position
You are so spinning!!!!
He HAS demonstrated ability to successfully lead others.
Bush formed a partnership and then managed the Texas Rangers.
Bush was a Governor for 6 yrs.
His oil exploration business hit the skids along with many many others during the low oil cost period when exploration in the USA was practically dead. Even today, oil industry companies are bought and sold frequently. It's a risky business. Note that Bush was still appointed director positions in the takeovers.
And, of course, he was elected President and has 4 yrs experience handling a crisis well. He has more support now than he did when he was originally elected.
The RNC has NOT been mostly about Kerry! You hear what you want to hear, obviously.
Look, I am not a big Bush supporter, because he is more liberal than I would like in some areas, and less liberal in some other areas (like science research). But, I much prefer him over Kerry, for much the same reasons that Zell Miller stated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2004 1:24 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 493 of 612 (139528)
09-03-2004 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by crashfrog
09-03-2004 1:15 AM


Kerry is hiding the truth
crashfrog writes:
Look, there's no two ways about the official Naval records; they support Kerry's accounts and contradict the Swift Boat accounts. There's no two sides about it. The Naval records support one story - Kerry's.
SBV's say they would not have brought this up if Kerry was not running for President, because it did not matter so much anymore to them. Some did not know what the Naval record said, either. They wrote him off as a traitorous non-team player, but the war was over, and they could put that behind them.... they thought.
The Naval record is what those in power wanted it to say. I have heard from the generals of the time that Purple Hearts were more freely given out during the Vietnam war, to try to bolster the moral in the face of growing doubt of worthiness.
These SBV's are passionate about the deception of Kerry and his anti-Military actions, predominantly the ones they witnessed.
Usually, the military folks band together and overlook political differences. Witness McCain and the lack of incidents like this for any other candidate. However, the fact that these Republican and Democratic SBVs are going to extra effort to make their point. It's not just some interviewer who looked them up and asked a question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 1:15 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 11:09 AM ThingsChange has replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 494 of 612 (139535)
09-03-2004 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by crashfrog
09-03-2004 1:15 AM


Interpretation of events
crashfrog writes:
It's the truth. Bush waited as the towers burned. He finished a kiddie book instead of leading the country.
You are forming your own opinion of what a leader should do in that situation. Other leaders disagree with your interpretation. So, the case is not crystal clear that he acted as a poor leader. What is clear is that his leadership on fighting terrorism is what a lot of us are looking for.
Regarding the incident you cite, the chain of command depends upon information from subordinates. The country is generally prepared for anticipated attack events, and not dependent upon the President's command to respond. This was an unanticipated event, like Pearl Harbor. In the case of Pearl Harbor, it was clear who the attacker was. It was not clear for World Trade Center. Bush needed more information, just as any commander on a battlefield would need before making an unplanned decision.
The fact is, there is nothing the President could have done at that time more than what he did. It's not like he could have stopped the planes. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 1:15 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 501 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 11:34 AM ThingsChange has replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 495 of 612 (139537)
09-03-2004 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by crashfrog
09-03-2004 1:19 AM


Voting as a measure of decision-making
crashfrog writes:
Voting isn't a decision?
Voting is a very minor decision compared to actually making things happen.
Luckily, Kerry's voting decisions on military issues were not the final decisions, as Zell Miller pointed out.
Since you brought it up, voting is not one of Kerry strengths. It seems he was absent quite often. Seems like that is not good leadership, if voting is your criteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 1:19 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 11:18 AM ThingsChange has not replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 500 of 612 (139552)
09-03-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Minnemooseus
09-03-2004 2:51 AM


Re: Kerry Wimped, refused to release complete medical records!
But what I and others would like to see released, are the government records concerning the formulation of energy policy
Just like a liberal... shift the argument to avoid the issue.
The energy policy records (I thought this was discussed in length before on this forum) like other private consultations in the past between administrations, is not frequently revealed for public consumption.
It's a no-win situation for Cheney for liberal critics, since if those who know about energy were consulted, the conspiracy theorists would shout about helping friends, and if those companies were not consulted, then the critics would shout that the experts were not consulted.
The consultation is a distraction. What makes a difference are the decisions! That's what really counts.
You liberals are so into the "intent" business, that you infer things assuming the worst, because of your prejudices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-03-2004 2:51 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 502 of 612 (139574)
09-03-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by crashfrog
09-03-2004 11:09 AM


Navy is questioning Kerry's record
crashfrog writes:
We don't know who wrote the military records, but those reports would have been written by people who were there, possibly by some of the men who later became Swift Boaters.\
The Navy is challenging the authenticity of Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam War medals. It seems Judicial Watch has asked Kerry to remove some of his questionable claims from his Web site, pending a formal investigation by the Navy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 11:09 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2004 4:19 PM ThingsChange has replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 504 of 612 (139601)
09-03-2004 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by nator
09-03-2004 11:34 AM


Re: Interpretation of events
leadership that lies in order to garner support
You liberals are lying about this claim that Bush lied.
Bush did not lie.
He told the truth as he was informed.
Lying would be knowing the truth but saying otherwise.
Also, you don't know that he has stopped looking for Osama. People thought the same thing about Saddam. I don't for a minute think he has stopped looking. I do believe he is downplaying Osama to flush him out of the caves, however. This is another instance of reading what you interpret his intent to be, and as a liberal, you find the worst intent to latch onto.
...no connection to Al Qaida or Osama bin Laden?
Obviously, you are ignoring the facts that repeatedly reject this old mantra from the left. This "deny the facts on old arguments" is a just like Creationists. How ironic for EvC Forum. If you want those facts, go replay McCain, Guiliani, O'Reilly and go look things up on the Web and news. I don't have to the time.
...reduction in our civil rights...
I think the negatives are grossly overblown (as usual) by liberals, since they are mainly "potential" and not reality. The risks are enormous in the coming years of a terrorist action that could dwarf the WTC tragedy. Since we are not invading Pakistan, Syria, Iran, etc. to hunt down terrorists (as if that would be effective... not), we are depending upon intelligence, especially here at home. So, you and Kerry like to disadvantage the Intelligence community when we need more. I would rather help reduce the chances of a major terrorist action than form a committee after another tragedy to investigate and conclude that our Intelligence organization was lacking.
P.S. Hmmm. You seem potentially dangerous. Where do you live? Please be specific and give hours when you are home. As a liberal, you don't have a gun, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 11:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by Chiroptera, posted 09-03-2004 2:25 PM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 509 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 8:06 PM ThingsChange has replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 508 of 612 (139717)
09-03-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by crashfrog
09-03-2004 4:19 PM


I stand corrected
Substantiate Claim (of Navy investigation)
I got the news from Newsmax, but it is misleading.
I should have known... nothing can move so fast with government.
Correction: The Navy is not (yet) investigating Kerry. The DoD with cooperation from Attorney General must investigate the allegation first to see if the charges have merit worth pursuing. Then, the Navy would actually investigate.
more from Chicago Sun Times:
Page not found - Chicago Sun-Times

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 511 of 612 (139794)
09-04-2004 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by RAZD
09-03-2004 11:34 PM


Re: but aren't you concerned?
C'mon. There are liberal and conservative groups that spin news to their views. So, no I am not concerned about this. Besides, the story is just beginning.
With 200 vets discounting Kerry's version of events, I don't doubt that they may be onto to something. With Kerry not releasing records, and more and more Navy leaders speaking up, I suspect he is hiding something.
I suspect the Democrats will pressure Bush to stop any investigation. Unfortunately, I suspect he will, since he is leading in the polls.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2004 11:34 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 12:53 AM ThingsChange has replied
 Message 516 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2004 4:26 PM ThingsChange has replied
 Message 520 by patriot0717, posted 09-06-2004 1:20 AM ThingsChange has replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 513 of 612 (139801)
09-04-2004 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by nator
09-03-2004 8:06 PM


Re: Interpretation of events
You did not prove that Bush lied. Your evidence indicates he was misinformed, as were the Intelligence gurus he depended on. That's not intent to deceive. You want to think the worst, and I give him the benefit of doubt because there is no reason for him to deceive.
I tried to explain why Bush downplayed the Osama hunting. I was addressing the quotes without specifically referring to them. You just don't see or want to believe the strategy.
I don't see abuse of Patriot Act. I think it is worth it to battle terrorism, which you still don't seem to think is a big threat.
I am not going to recite all the evidence from news reports over the last year that reveals Al Qaida planning a more massive attack.
They are not stupid. They know it's hard to pull-off attacks, so they must be high-impact when they do work. That was why they chose airplanes on WTC. One wish intercepted by CIA is for a dirty bomb to put Manhattan inactive for 10,000 years.
Our difference seems simple: You don't perceive a real threat that warrants the Patriot Act, but I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by nator, posted 09-03-2004 8:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 11:47 AM ThingsChange has replied
 Message 515 by nator, posted 09-04-2004 5:42 PM ThingsChange has replied
 Message 522 by patriot0717, posted 09-06-2004 1:52 AM ThingsChange has not replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 556 of 612 (140792)
09-07-2004 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by patriot0717
09-07-2004 12:44 PM


Re: whatever, please answer the question.
patriot0717 writes:
2. What steps do you think should be taken to prevent Cheney from siphoning off billions of dollars into his Haliburton bank account via the Iraq war?
patriot0717 writes:
3. How do we stop Bu$h from raiding the social security fund and then eliminating the program all together?
patriot0717 writes:
Whatever, usually the way in which a person determines credibility is to compare a persons words with the truth.
Before you take Whatever to task, check your own "truth".
Dick Cheney does not have a conflict of interest with Halliburton equities. If he did, the Democrats would be all over this issue.
Congress, not Bush, organizes the budgets and allocates the money. Bush cannot eliminate Social Security, even if he wanted.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5956 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 562 of 612 (140829)
09-07-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by RAZD
09-04-2004 12:53 AM


Re: but aren't you concerned?
RAZD writes:
This is orchestrated just as the SBV was ...
You seem to rely on a lot of conspiracies and speculative intent instead of just evaluating the facts. For example, the 200+ SBV's make good points and feel strongly about their views. Unless you call all 200 liars or prove they have been paid for their views, then I don't think you can claim Bush is putting them up to it.
RAZD writes:
..doesn't it disturb you that such tactics are being used?
You haven't convinced me that tactics are being used. That is your speculation and interpretation.
Besides that, the Democrats are the worst at using the very tactics you despise. Look at what MoveOn, MMoore, Kennedy, Gephardt and even Kerry says about Bush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2004 12:53 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by nator, posted 09-07-2004 10:19 PM ThingsChange has not replied
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