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Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 61 of 156 (191968)
03-16-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by trent13
03-16-2005 4:38 PM


Re: Scapegoat
quote:
I don't understand what you think is not appropriate to the subject matter.
I didn't say it was not appropriate.

quote:
but, I agree with what you say, Christ acts as the scapegoat for man's sin, but only if we avail ourselves of His offering, by recognizing it and living our lives accordingly

I seriously want to know where, in this conversation that Nicodemus is having with Jesus, do you interpret taking on faults. Where do you see that message in the text of their conversation?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 62 of 156 (191969)
03-16-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by trent13
03-16-2005 4:02 PM


Re: John 3:15
I can honestly say that I totally disagree with every single point found in your last paragraph.

To explain all of the places where I believe your last paragraph is in error would take this thread way off topic and I have written at length on many of them already. But if there is one or two you'd like to discuss, please start a thread on them and I'll be glad to discuss things with you.

As for St. Thomas, many of his ideas have application in science but few have application in Theology. Again, would take us way off topic but one quick example is the existence of GOD. God either exists or does not exist, but while we may have beliefs on the matter, it is not something that can be determined with certainty.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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trent13
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 156 (191991)
03-16-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by purpledawn
03-16-2005 4:54 PM


Re: Scapegoat
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

If humanity is condemned, it must be condemned for something - this something is the sin of Adam and Eve and whatever sin is committed after baptism - because the only thing God can take offence to is sin - it is the only real evil - perhaps you will tell me that the scripture quote doesn't say that.

I answer that interpretations of scripture rarely stand completely and totally on their own - they usually must be understood in conjunction with the entirety of doctrine and the interpretation of the bible through tradition. This is why the Catholic Church is not sola scriptura.

Moving on... "Because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son." What does it mean to believe in the name of Christ? If one believes in His Name, one also believes that He is what He says He is, and will also believe in Him. Had the unbeliever believed in the name of Christ, the ability of Christ's name to save the world, he would not be condemned. Thus, by our association with Christ we are saved. John 3:14-15 states

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up [referring to the pole upon which the serpent was hung, so Our Lord will also be raised up on the pole of the cross]: 15 That whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting."

The association is through the sacrifice of Christ - we were condemned for commiting an offence to an infinite God, thus, for committing an infinte offence. God became man and offered Himself on our behalf ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life) - keep in mind the doctrine of the Holy Trinity - and thus, by His infinite offering, for He is God, our infinite offence was wiped out as well as the temporal punishment owed to it.

What is the reason for Jesus Christ, God made man - why would an Infinite God so lower Himself as to become man? Evidently as He Himself claimed, to save the world. From what? From sin. How? By taking the sin onto Himself, thus, sacrificing Himself for the world. How do we avail ourselves of His sacrifice? By believing in His Name, and thus, in everything He says and by following everything He tells us to do.

However, that is all I have to say. It is not worthwhile to continue after this. I believe that I have answered as best I could your question. I'm sorry if you think it insufficient, I'm only human.:)

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 03-17-2005 12:39 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by purpledawn, posted 03-16-2005 4:54 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 03-16-2005 6:31 PM trent13 has responded
 Message 66 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 8:48 PM trent13 has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 64 of 156 (191993)
03-16-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by trent13
03-16-2005 6:07 PM


Re: Scapegoat
See that wasn't so difficult. :)

All you had to say was "Because doctrine and tradition said so."


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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trent13
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 156 (191997)
03-16-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by purpledawn
03-16-2005 6:31 PM


Re: Scapegoat
LOL God forbid that I shall ever claim to havng discovered the secret to Eternal Life utterly and entirely on my own.:)

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jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 66 of 156 (192012)
03-16-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by trent13
03-16-2005 6:07 PM


Re: Scapegoat
trent13 asserts:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

If humanity is condemned, it must be condemned for something - this something is the sin of Adam and Eve and whatever sin is committed after baptism - because the only thing God can take offence to is sin - it is the only real evil - perhaps you will tell me that the scripture quote doesn't say that. I answer that interpretations of scripture rarely stand completely and totally on their own - they usually must be understood in conjunction with the entirety of doctrine and the interpretation of the bible through tradition.

Since this is from John I'll try to respond.

Trent, that is NOT what the passage says at all. In fact, the passage goes on to explain exactly what the condemnation is and it is not damnation.

In John 3 the condemnation is simply to not behave properly.

19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

All it is saying is that if you do not act, do not behave, as Jesus taught then your behavior is condemned. It's not about profession of faith, or being a Christian, it's about behavior. It ain't what you say, it's what you do.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13244
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 156 (192061)
03-17-2005 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
03-16-2005 8:23 AM


Re: John 3:16, Paulianity, and Sheep/Goats
Jar writes:

So far no one has been able to show any absolute truths but I'm always willing to consider one if you can produce it.

How about John 3:16? How can this NOT be an absolute truth?

Jar writes:

It's not about profession of faith, or being a Christian, it's about behavior. It ain't what you say, it's what you do.


Paul reconciles the fact that behavior without relational impartation is never enough. It ain't what you do, but in whose name or Spirit you ultimately do it!
NIV writes:

Rom 3:10-11
10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
(from New International Version)


And before you trot out the sheep and goats scripture, keep in mind that that scripture was told to believing Jews who needed to perform works based on their own religion. Some say that the reason that the End is referred to is because the Rapture of the Church will have already taken place and the Jews and the unbelievers are all that is left.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-17-2005 12:36 AM


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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 156 (192083)
03-17-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
03-16-2005 8:48 PM


Exclusionary
Hey jar,

It is interesting that the Book of John and 1 John are the only authors to speak of believing in the name.

If we read the passage unclouded by today's doctrine and traditions, John 3:16 does fit with what Jesus was supposedly teaching.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that he sent his son to prepare the world for the coming of the Kingdom of God. (repent and be baptized)

God did not send his son to judge the world but to save it by preparing it through his teachings.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 8:48 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 69 of 156 (192093)
03-17-2005 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Thugpreacha
03-17-2005 2:29 AM


Re: John 3:16, Paulianity, and Sheep/Goats
How about John 3:16? How can this NOT be an absolute truth?

Well,we are currently discussing what John 3:16 means. If we cannot be sure what it means it cannot be a Truth. And if we finally agree on a meaning, it is still not an Absolute Truth but rather an Absolute Belief.

The Nicene Creed is not the "I knows" but the "I believes".

Let's deal with Romans at another time because I also believe you good folk are misunderstanding what it says.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 72 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-18-2005 10:06 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13244
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 156 (192132)
03-17-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-17-2005 8:44 AM


Re: John 3:16
Messiahs Covenant Community writes:

When John says, 'To all who received Him, to those who believed on His name, He gave the right to become children of God' (1:12), he is not telling us of a new soteriology, but a new people! John sets this fact in the context of Jewish unbelief. Verse 11: His own pretty much rejected Him. Verse 12: But don’t let that get you down. That only means that now anybody can become 'one of His own.' Verse 13: It doesn’t matter where you were born, in or out of Israel, if you’re born of God.

Similarly, John 3:16 sometimes tortures those who take their starting point in election rather than in the covenant. Poor souls! Just read it with all that’s been said in mind and there is no need to twist or be twisted. 'God so loved the world (not just Israel) that He gave His only begotten Son (His Word, His covenant – cf. Isaiah 42:6), that whosoever (not just Jews) believes in Him (apart from circumcision) should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world (all nations, indiscriminately; not all individuals) through Him (the Word of God made flesh)

The Gospel of the Kingdom was being expanded. God had not yet concluded Israel into unbelief, but already was proclaiming a message of salvation for the Gentiles--a message not understood at that time by anyone else. Later, Paul became the apostle to and for the Gentiles. All of the others,(12) were still proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom--Israel reigning on Earth--a process that was to be put on hold for two thousand years +.
This is why the early Bible (pre-ten commandments) was written about all people, the O.T. after the Law until the coming of the Messiah was written to Jews, and Pauls Epistles were written primarily to Gentile believers. Revelation again is written for the remnant of Jews left after the Rapture of the Church. But that is another thread topic! :)

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-17-2005 10:26 AM


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jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 71 of 156 (192148)
03-17-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Thugpreacha
03-17-2005 12:23 PM


Re: John 3:16
And what is the Condemnation?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13244
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 156 (192296)
03-18-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-17-2005 8:44 AM


Re: John 3:16
And if we finally agree on a meaning, it is still not an Absolute Truth but rather an Absolute Belief.
Sigh....The living Christ may well be an absolute truth, but I suppose that in order to be P.C. and not offend anyone, we can leave it as a belief!

Now...you ask where is the condemnation? In context, there was at that time no condemnation for those who believed and who strived for spirituality. Am I missing anything?


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 73 of 156 (192310)
03-18-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Thugpreacha
03-18-2005 10:06 AM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
In context, there was at that time no condemnation for those who believed and who strived for spirituality
What were they supposed to believe at that time:

That what Jesus taught about the coming kingdom was true?
That Jesus was the son of God?
That the son of God was named Jesus?

How were they to strive for spirituality at that time?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-18-2005 10:06 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13244
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 156 (192318)
03-18-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by purpledawn
03-18-2005 11:04 AM


Re: John 3:16
What were they supposed to believe at that time:
That what Jesus taught about the coming kingdom was true?
That Jesus was the son of God?
That the son of God was named Jesus?

How were they to strive for spirituality at that time?


As Jews, they were to observe their law. They were to search the scriptures and believe in the Messiah.
This would be an impartation. Just as flesh and blood did not cause Peter to believe in Christ, so too flesh and blood(intellect) be a cause for the belief to germinate. Impartation was the road to understanding, and few found it. (Or received it)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 75 of 156 (192326)
03-18-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Thugpreacha
03-18-2005 11:55 AM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
They were to search the scriptures and believe in the Messiah.
You changed the noun, now it is believe in the Messiah.

Believe what?

Believe what the scriptures say about the Messiah.
Believe that the Messiah is the son of God literally?
Believe that Jesus was the Messiah?
Believe what the Messiah said once he had proven himself to be the messiah?
Believe others who claim someone is the messiah?
Believe that the Messiah will come?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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