Existence of Demons (and Angels)

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Hm, another victim of the secularist educational nightmare.

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If knowledge and learning must be avoided to maintain a faith, is it a faith worthy of having?

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You don't read very carefully. Knowledge and learning are much to be desired, but secularist education misguides people.

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How so?

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{EDIT: The topic was losing faith in God by learning about mythology. Just means that it was taught from the secularist point of view.

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But don't you consider all mythologies from a secular (maning "unbeliever") point of view, save your own?

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There's PLENTY to learn about mythology from a Christian point of view that would certainly not compromise one's faith.

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Like I said, if learning about any mythology, including Christian mythology, from a secular point of view causes people to lose their faith, then that faith must not have been very strong or worthy of having in the first place.If you can't learn how people who do not think like you view your faith without losing that faith, then doesn't that mean that learning and knowledge is dangerous to your faith, and is such a fragile and tenuouous and anti-learning faith worth having?

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Yes faith can be weak and it needs to be protected for that reason.

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...protected from knowledge and learning, because the "wrong kind" of knowledge and learning (like learning about science, for example) can cause people to lose their faith, right?

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It's very worth it, like something precious that can be lost. And we absolutely DO need to know how the world thinks -- NOT knowing is what exposes young Christians to a loss of faith when they hit college unprepared for the worldly attitudes there.

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Right.Being exposed to many different ideas, including science, is dangerous to your kind of religious faith, isn't it?Well, my question remains.Is a faith that depends upon ignorance and being sheltered from learning a wothwhile faith to have? Would your God wish you to remain ignorant of his creation?

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They need to be inoculated with a heavy dose of all of it in a Christian context all through their childhood.

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Do you mean they must be "innoculated" against letting in any knowledge or teaching that contradicts their dogma?Well, that sounds like a faith that is always going to be weak and will always cause it's adherents to avoid learning and knowledge.

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All the Bible is regarded by believers as factually true,

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That's not true.In fact, only a small minority of believers consider the Bible to be factually true in all things.The vast majority of Christians do not.

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The only thing that matters in the facts is the question of who Jesus Christ is.

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Well, that's your thought, but Faith and Buzsaw and many others disagree with you.

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If a belief says that He is no longer alive and is a mere man, that belief is not a Christian belief. At best, it is a Pseudophilosophical belief.

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Oh, I think it could be a real philosophical belief, but perhaps not a Christian belief, at least the way you (and many others) define "Christian Belief".However, who am I (or you) to tell someone that they aren't a "real Christian" if they consider themselves one, even if they think that Jesus was a mere man?

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We are dealing with the source of wisdom, again. Christian belief would by and large agree that at a macro level at least, life was created. Intelligence was created.

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I personally know several devout Christians who do not believe this.

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Any intelligent Christian is unconcerned so much with evolution on earth.

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...except those Christian Biologists who delight in God's creation.

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We are concerned with the philosophy of the origin of life in general.

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That may have been caused by God, but it more likely to have come about naturally, too. It's just chemical reactions, really.

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The origin of conscious intelligence.

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Oh, you mean our great big brains?Evolution.

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It concerns me when conscious intelligence itself uses logic and reasoning to define its own existence and purpose while bypassing the obvious source, which is a Creator.

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What Creator?

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As to whether the Bible is factually true, only THIS truth...the identity of the Creator...found in the idea of His Son...really matters.

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Well, tell that to Faith.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-23-2005 12:56 PM

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Yes, apparently it sounds like quibbling, but the point is that these theories are NOT "conclusions" from the sciences.

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Yes, all of those hundreds of thousands of scientists are ALL MORONS, like I said before. Or incredible LIARS.It really has to be one or the other.They are so INCREDIBLY STUPID and OBTUSE to base any of their proposed hypothese upon the validity and reliability of the GTT or the ToE.I mean, SO WHAT if all of their testing of these theories have confirmed them as two of the most solidly supported ideas in all of science? All scientists are CLEARLY so WHOLLY DEFICIENT in the smarts department that not a single one of them has figured out what you have been able to confirmwithout your having any training or expertise in any scientific field whatsoever!Truly, Faith, if I were you I would start contacting all of the top Geologists, Nuclear Physicists, Evolutionary Biologists, and Paleontologists in the world and tell them how they HAVEN'T actually been doing any science at all, but have been dumbly accepting something that YOU have EASILY figured out just can't be true.Make sure to show them your math, they will be impressed with that.They really need to know how wrong they have been about everything for their entire careers.You would be doing science SUCH a huge service, really.Wait, wait!!!!!I've just had a very DISTURBING, DARK thought.What if there is a MASSIVE CONSPIRACY within the worldwide scientific community to LIE TO THE WORLD about the validity of the ToE and the GTT??????????????How can you possibly deal with SUCH EVIL as that?

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The sciences do NOT support evolutionism or the Geo Time Table. These two theories are IMPOSED on the sciences and the actual evidence is forced to fit into them.

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Maybe you could do us a favor and explain how radioactive decay rates are "imposed" upon Geology?

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By the same token, who are you to tell a guy who believes that the earth is 6000 years old that they are not a real scientist?

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By your definition of science, right?

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Not at all.Beliefs have nothing to do with being a scientist.Qualifying as a scientist has to do with the methods you use.

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And so I judge Christians based on an orthodox definition of Christianity.

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...and I can probably find lots of people who do not fit your definition and still call themselves Christian.Why is your definition better than theirs?Are you saying that there is an objective standard that all Christians agree upon?And I can find lots of Christians who disagree with you.

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I've tried many times to show you that you are wrong, but you prefer your own opinion so I'll leave you to it.

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I must say, I am disappointed.You weren't able to address any of my points at all.That should tell you something.

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All the Bible is regarded by believers as factually true,

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Then why aren't they all drinking poison without being harmed?

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I don't understand that something can have an inherent form and not have been made or designed.

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Snowflakes have an inherent form that required no intelligence to form. It's just the way the molecular bonds form that result in the shapes you see.

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Really? So molecular bonds just form that way.

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Yep, all by themselves as a consequence of their shapes.

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It's like a mere coincidence.

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Sure, why does it have to be anything else?If I throw a deck of cards in the air, is the pattern they form on the floor a "mere coincidence"?I'd say it was.

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I choose to look deeper.

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Yeah, you look "deeply" all right.I hoope you have a shovel with you.

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I don't think we could ever make that judgement because our ability to percieve God is limited.

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Then why do you make claims about intelligent design being evidenced in nature if you admit that your ability to perceive God is limited?

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I don't believe in coincidence.

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Coincidence occurs no matter if you believe it does or not.Anyway, do you actually believe that god is purposefully placing each card on the ground?

Please try to express yourself more clearly.I have no idea what you are trying to say.

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listen to phil collins

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You'd be much better off listening to Genesis, unless you are restricting yourself to his first two solo albums. Everything after "Hello, I Must Be Going" sucks.