Abortion

Interesting position. This, of course, has been a common practice historically. I seem to remember reading an article about mummied babies found in egypt from this practice. Correct. Read about fetal hemoglobin and the way the heart changes at birth.More to the point, you are (presumably) talking mostly about severly {deformed\challenged} births.One could legitimately propose a litmus test that the born fetus take on the challenge of life "without invasive medical intervention" and that parents do currently by law have the right to withold medical treatment based on their {morals\faith\beliefs}.There is also some evidence that no real memories are made earlier than around 2 years old because of the continued growth of the human mind. I know that my son has no memory of the grand canyon, though he was exposed to it at 18 months and we talked about it often afterwards. Likewise he has no memory of the house we lived in.As a side note, I read somewhere recently (news article) that they had determined that a fetus does not feel pain until the third trimester.Personally I think that with the technology available today that these decisions should be made before the third trimester. Why delay a result if the decision is made?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

For such a {{moment}} to exist it would have to be agreed on by all the people in the world ... but traditionally that moment has been birth. Problem is that this is known to be an extremely poor predictor of resulting in "a new human being with personhood¹" -- only 1/3rd of zygotes (the combined sperm and egg) make it past the 12th week ... under normal conditions. When we include the number of spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) from that time to birth and the number of stillborns, SIDS, etc, this proportion will be even lower.In my opinion this is worse than chosing the 10th birthday as a predictor of "personhood" as, while nearly 100% of those reaching their 10th year will be {persons} it will exclude a smaller number that could be {considered persons} that don't make that cut-off point than are erroneously included by your metric. And one of the best examples of those grayscales are the different manner in which we feel we should personally be treated at the end of our lives.Taking the Terri Schiavo case as a touch-stone of the range of gray, there were people that felt they needed to pass a law specifically to keep alive the body of a woman who had expressed a desire to be allowed a dignified death.The ethics of death decisions has already been worked out in the courts and the philosophical arena, and the consensus is that there is so much variation in beliefs and personal values that the decisions must be made by the person themselves or an appropriate surrogate that can speak for them: spouse, parent, child ... family.The ethics of abortion are no different than the ethics of deciding to terminate life support. Exactly. I am not so quick to draw this conclusion from the data: the status of women in different {countries\societies}, the economics and nutritional impacts are too different. This could also be a result of more widespread use of birth control, so that the proportion of sexual acts that result in pregnancy are more likely to be consciously enacted for that purpose. And this is done by allowing personal decision. Nobody is forced to have an abortion that doesn't want one. Not here anyway. Agreed.¹ Personhood ... interesting that you make that distinction ... see discussion on personhood here (scroll down or search the page for personhood)Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Well, unless I've missed something, it seems we are all pretty much in agreement on the issue.Sounds like the concensus is, "Wish we didn't have to have abortions, but need to keep it legal."Given the variety of posters here and their positions from other threads, I would think that all the press this issue gets is nothing more than noise.Seems like the "make it illegal" crowd are a small fringe minority with a bullhorn.

Again, I am willing to compromise. There are very logical and practical reasons to count birth as the beginning of legal personhood with full protection, regardless of moral arguments like the ones I have been making, and even clinical ones like you made in your thread.Personally I do agree that it is exteremly rare that anyone would find themselves in a situation where they have to make a decision as late as the 3rd trimester. I mean I am sure there are some cases, though rare. Of course there are also cases where deformities are not caught until birth. That is still a very sticky issue for me.There was a case of a father whose wife died in childbirth and the child was damaged and the father simply did not want to have that child continue to live in those circumstances. He ended up killing the child in the hospital and then getting arrested and sent to jail. It seemed to me that those are one of the situations where infanticide... even in a modern culture... seems reasonable.Oh yes, on top of Egypt, Romans practiced what was called "exposure" which is infanticide. There were also some findings of this type of behavior in Greece and Phoenicia.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm not sure I'd agree with every point made, especially regarding conception as anything close to a point of "creation", but I thought your post was well written and formed a compelling argument which I would not disagree with.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

My stance is a little different. I wish there weren't any unwanted pregnancies, but as long as there are - it sure is great we have the option of abortion!.Abortion is a wonderful thing, just like heart transplants are. It sucks needing to have one, but damn it is good to have when you need it!/Soren

quote:

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It sucks needing to have one....

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But I wonder how much of the suckage is due to the training of females, beginning at birth, that bearing children is a natural part of womanhood, to the point where we train some women to feel that terminating a pregnancy is necessarily an emotion and sometimes traumatic decision to make.I have a feeling that if we were to actually teach children growing up that their inherent worth is due to what kind of human beings they are, not their biology, then abortion would become no big deal.

Much like RAZD, then.About that particular aspect: you have to realize that that was in the "Utopia" context.I understand your particular argumentation, which starts from the fact that becoming a member of our society, a human being with personhood and all, is not something instantaneous but rather fuzzy. And it can only really happen in interaction with other human beings and such (otherwise no cognitive abilities...) . But that aspect of reality does cause a lot of trouble, so I would argue that a "Utopia" would benefit from a universally agreed 'point of no return'. Just before that point, there is no value, and just after it, there is full protection as a human being with personhood.Like I said, that IS Utopian. But the whole post was kinda created around that "Utopia" context.

That's a good observation. It also works in the other direction: if there wouldn't be such a stigmatisation and taboo, and if there were measures to facilitate teen pregnancies (or for example a culture where mothers or family members find it obvious to (help) raise children of acquaintances or family members), then there would be less need for abortion as well.

Hello, Annafan.Currently, abortion is a medical procedure that is invasive and expensive. Also, requiring the patient to physically go to a doctor allows all sorts of legal barriers (like waiting periods, restrictions on clinics practicing abortion). So until an inexpensive and safe over-the-counter abortifacient becomes available, abortion will be, for practical reasons, the least attractive method of birth control.I certainly support the availability of (and education on the uses of) all means of birth control. Certainly if I had teenage children they would have whatever means of birth control that they feel the most confortable with, and I would keep a basket in the bathroom filled with condoms that I would periodically refill with no questions asked.However, a lot of people who believe that abortion should remain legal remain uncomfortable about it, and I have always wondered whence their discomfort. Suppose that an inexpensive and safe medicine were available over the counter that would terminate a first trimester pregnancy. No greater risk of complictations than bringing the pregnancy to term, say, no more expensive than a home pregnancy test, and easily available. Would these people still be uncomfortable about terminating a pregnancy?

Abortion is mentioned in the Hypocratic oath (against). Clearly this is a practice which has been known for almost as long as medicine itself

I hope you understand we were specifically discussing the practice of infanticide, which is killing a child after it is born, and not the termination of a pregnancy.I am unaware exactly how long "abortion" has been around, and you are probably correct. Certainly abortificients have been around for some time.That is something that I find curious. Certainly it was around during the time the Bible was being written. Are there any descriptions of this and specific rules against it? I know most arguments stem from a passage discussing the knowledge of God, but if he really wanted it banned, wouldn't it be mentioned specifically?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

When I read the Torah I was struck by a curious fact.If a person killed another person, even if by accident, there was a special procedure that was specified to determine whether the killer was a murderer or not. He was required to make his way to one of several cities designated as "sanctuary" cities. As long as he remained in one of these cities, he was safe from retribution from the relatives of the deceased; however, if he was found outside these cities he could be killed by the relatives. Either the elders of the cities or the Levites (I can't remember which off hand) would then hear the facts of the case and determine whether the person was innocent of murder; if declared innocent he could then go about his life without fear of retribution. However, if found guilty of murder, he would be delivered to the relatives of the deceased who would then exact retribution.(Num. 35:9-28)On the other hand, if a person accidently caused a woman to miscarry, there was no stipulation that he quickly run to a sanctuary city. Rather, he was simply required to pay a fine, as if he had killed another person's ox. (See Ex. 21:22 ff.)So the Old Testament clearly does not equate a fetus with a human being -- the Old Testament itself indicates that a fetus is more like a piece of property.Edited to add references. I made a few errors in details that I have not corrected.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 27-Aug-2005 07:18 PM

I remember reading about {herbs\plants} that were sought out by chimps and which have abortificient properties ... ah yes: From http://www.originsnet.org/chimpspirit161k.pdf -- page 11
(a rather controversial site that tends to overstate the positions it tries to make about chimp spirituality -- a point I've noted before in its regard)The conclusion here is not validated by the evidence, and the evidence is circumstantial and anecdotal.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Yeah, but not before that damn liberal feminist Jane Good-all-for-nothing arrived on the scene. Before that they simply abstained like good Xian monkeys.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)