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Author
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Topic: Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: We meet again
Like the proverbial bad penny 
purpleyouko writes: On the one hand, if God set up the situation, having foreknowledge of the outcome then from His perspective, there would be no choice. On the other hand, from the perspective of A&E (and the rest of the Human race) we have total free choice..... To me this equates to free will (in a sense) Good point there PY. Which does ratchet the discussion on. I think the main problem is that we are not in a position to create anything which has absolute choice. Modulous computer analogy shows we can stretch the distance between us and the result - but we cannot break the link of determinism in our 'creations' choice. We are not God. God can do things that we can't. Creating a being of complete will -sufficient that punishment is justified (in Gods eyes) because of it's 'choices' it makes is all he would have to achieve. Talk of how abslute the choice is not possible because there is no standard to measure against. Do we have sufficient choice as it relates to condemnation/salvation is all the matters.
Any choice made can only really be free if all consequences are known. In order to know all the consequences one would have to be God. Sufficient knowledge is sufficient is sufficient choice is the deal. All that has to occur for God to be just (fair) is that the choice wasn't loaded one way or the other.
If God had foreknowledge of the outcome then he really only set the scene for one choice with the illusion of a second which he knew would never be chosen. I've asked this a few times earlier. So I ask you. How is foreknowledge of choice influencing the choice Remember it's God not you whose doing the foreknowledging. God sets up a choice in one department of his being and concurrently looks at another department to see what the choice is. How does one influence the other Remember God, when he forgives choses not to see our sin anymore. It's not that he runs a line through it but keeps it in his ledger under "forgiven sins of Iano". They are as far removed from his sight "as the east is from the west" God can do stuff we can't conceive of. Where's the conceptual problem with that?
He is just causing totally unnecessary suffering for his own amusement, his son's included. Hmmmm. If you edit this out quick you won't run the risk of your comment going into the eternity that is the net. But you gotta be quick PY
This is just one of the reasons that I became an Atheist in the first place Everyones an atheist (in God) until they become a believer. And once a believer always a believer. That's the deal (Gods deal I mean). This message has been edited by iano, 28-Sep-2005 05:38 PM
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by PurpleYouko, posted 09-28-2005 10:50 AM | | PurpleYouko has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: Independence Day
Purpledawn writes: I disagree. Disobeying a parental instruction does not mean the child wants independence from the parent I doubt anyone can measure that. Can we keep to what we do know of choice in relation to independance from instruction/law. Adam and Eve weren't kids. We don't know what exact level of understanding they had, they could communicate in adult language with God. Presumably then, they knew the meaning of words and what words meant. Otherwise they would be talking gobbeldygook. If God gave them concepts for "eat" " surely" "God" why not a sufficient defintion of "die"?
expulsion from God was not a threat. Only death. Biblically, death means being separated from God. Either in this life or the next. God walked with Adam in the cool of the garden. After the fall came separation. You might not accept using the biblical 'theme' of death but how you interpret apart from the bible is...
[qs]We are talking about one story as written and not themes. If you want to speak English you use the definitions of English. If you want to talk bible you use the bible definitions of bible. It can't be helped. The bible is defined by itself - as is English
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by purpledawn, posted 09-28-2005 12:22 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: We meet again
PurpleYouko writes: No matter what man thinks he is freely choosing, he can only really go one way. Maybe we do agree so as per usual lets thrash it out. What you choose to wear tomorrow is completely and utterly you own free choice. God hasn't predetermined your choice. That he knows what your going to wear doesn't limit you choice in the sense that you will freely choose (within whatever bounds your choice is your own). But God knowing what it will be means it is sure to happen. Not because he influences it but simply because he can see into the future. IOW there is a difference between the analogy with Modulous programme where particular actions of the programmed ensure the result happens when it happens (eg: initial conditions)
But god already knows who is going to be condemned and who isn't. It doesn't matter what I do personally. I am utterly bound to do what God already knows I am going to do even though I percieve it as free choice. The one thing I can never do to an all-knowing God is to surprise him. God (in eternity) does indeed know who will chose for him and who won't. What he knows will happen for sure. But the choice is still ours (in time) and when we make it we won't have surprised him - because he already knew (though didn't influence) what it was going to be.
My sins were pre-ordained at the moment of creation. I may have thought I had the choice to commit them or not but in reality God set me up with inevitable failure as the only possible outcome.
In other words, his forgiveness is meaningless since the fault was his in the first place. I refuse to take responsibility for what is beyond my control. Pre-ordained means you had no choice. But you haven't shown how pre-ordained = pre-knowledge. Until you do, you sin remains yours. Unless of course you chose to have them forgiven.
Keep pushing and you just get kicked out of the congregation. It wouldn't get you pushed out of my congregation. Take creating something out of nothing. No man can do such a thing. No man could understand how it could be done. Why is it unreasonable to say there are aspects of God which can't be explained? Surely to be able to explain God completely would need us to be God ourselves. Enlighten me will ya?
I honestly believe that if there IS a God and he IS Omnipotent, Omniscient etc. then he absolutely fits my definition of EVIL. I would actually rather suffer for eternity than to voluntarily serve such a being. Your definition ABOVE Gods definition. PY, you are the the Bible in a nutshell. Man hating the idea of bowing to God on Gods terms. He could let us run free and then force us to bow if he chose. Instead he makes us willing to bow. He makes us enjoy it and want it and be thankful for it. By revealing himself to us. Once he does that (if you want him to) on your face ( just like all who to who he revealed himself in the bible) you will fall. And you won't mind in the least. God 'makes' us bow in the best possible way. He showers us (who choose freely for him) with love. You know that weak-kneed feeling you get with earthly love - well it's kind of like that - but better.... Mind/heart blowing
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 86 of 219 (247007)
09-28-2005 3:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Heathen
09-28-2005 1:19 PM
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Re: We meet again
Crevo writes: Precisely... the analogy describes the situation as layed out by you, and backed up by Genesis, which makes no sense... yet you still keep arguing for it? Modulous' analogy you mean? Modulous analogy demonstrated pre-determinism is all that man can do when he creates. But Modulous, though smart, ain't God. The link "Gods pre-knowledge = God pre-ordained" has not been made by the analogy. It can't be made at all
Hang on... Why may we suppose this? who gave you the divine knowledge to interpret this? Genesis says they didn't "know Death" (sorry... can't find the actual quote) and how could they? Man knew the meaning of words. Where else did he get to know the meaning of words but from God? If God gave him understanding of the meaning of words, why latch onto "die" as the only one that God didn't give Adam any understanding of? Note die means something different to us than in the bible. Death in the bible means separation from God and separation there surely was.
I can only do that if i work within your framework because you dismiss anything outside of that. Your actions are, as I said, reasonable. If we were talking mechanical engineering we'd use mech eng terms, science, science terms etc. So bible means bible terms. And there is more to mech eng than nuts and bolts, more to science than E=MC2, more to the bible that Genesis. If we're talking choice then choice would have to something implied throughout. And choice IS a major theme of the bible. Man's pre-knowledge = pre=ordained can be easily shown. God's pre-knowledge = pre-ordained hasn't been. As you try to formulate how the two are linked you are trying to pull God down to the limits of man. But that can't by definition work. Can you understand how God created something out of nothing. That you can't show it doesn't mean that God can't. He's big Crevo. Very, very BIG
PurpleYouko writes: Secondly, it wasn't really much of a sacrifice was it? he sends his son to live as a man for a very short period. he dies then is immediately ressurected. Big deal. What has God lost by this sacrifice? Would you put a child of yours through the physical torture of flogging, hate, beating and the excruciating pain of crucifixtion to save Hitler. Didn't think so. And God's relationship with his son ranks a little higher that the best parent/child relationship
iano writes: Choice makes sense of the bible. No choice nonsense
So you ignore rational argument and just pick the answer that backs you up? But you haven't made a rational argument. You say you've presumed the Bible to be Gods account in order to set terms of reference but don't debate within it. You take a fraction of it and extrapolate unfoundedly to reach extra biblical conclusions. Pre-knowledge = pre-ordination. Show this to be the case. Not with worldy, man-centred analogy but with one that takes into account who God is. Cut and paste from a previous post where you made it if you feel you have. Let there not be one presumptive statement in it. Put in a "this must mean" or "it stands to (extra-biblical) reason that"...and your rational argument isn't one. It's speculative and open to be shown to be so if subject to wider biblical examination.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Heathen, posted 09-28-2005 1:19 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
Purpleyouko writes: OK so I am going to choose to do it but all that means is that there is no possible way for me to make a different choice than the one that God knows I will make. Sounds pretty pre-ordained to me. Sound pretty pre-knowledge to me Pre-ordained implies the God set it up to happen - whatever happens happens by his having made sure it will happen. Pre-knowledge implies God gave you the free-choice (within constraints - ie: your perspective of knowing you can chose) and knows the result. The two are not the same thing. The difference are manifested by the central point of it all. Pre-ordained = God is responsible, pre-knowledge = your responsible. Further, pre-ordination means there is no 'you' just a complicated machine. Pre-knowledge means 'you' exists. I'll await your comments but you seem to be wandering the path of determinism here. That philosophy is completely hollow however. It is one that attempts to pull itself up by the bootstraps. Something which cannot succeed I would have thought.
"No man can do such a thing. " YET!
"No man could understand how it could be done." YET! (Making something out of nothing) Have you got a link to any reputable scientist who says this could ever be achieved
Because any aspect of God that has any effect on the natural world in which we live, MUST have been done in a NATURAL way. True SUPERNATURAL cannot interact with NATURAL or else it becomes NATURAL. Once it is in the realm of the natural then science can jump all over it, poke it, prod it, disect it, reverse engineer it till we know how it was done. I contend that whenever God interacted with our universe he would have done it according to the physical laws which He put in place. The Laws of Nature exist. They can be observed in action but no one knows (and reputable scientists admit that we can't know) from whence they came or what causes them to be the way they are. Why, for example, does light travel at the speed it does? For all our science these things remain impregnable. On what basis do you contend that God would interact according to the physical laws of nature. You would agree he is not confined by them....?
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: We meet again
purpleyouko writes: How can God be forced to send his son to be tortured in order to be allowed to change the rules so that he no longer has to punish inocent people for his own cock-ups? If you say innocent, by what standards are you measuring? Your standard or Gods. If Gods standard finds us guilty then surely that's the one that counts. Our definition of innocence doesn't count. Otherwise everyone would be innocent. And what are you measuring cock-ups if not by your own definition of cock-up. There's the rub PY. It's what God decides not what you decide. Your displaying an admirable attempt to be independent of God. If it were possible then that would be a rational enough decision. That we can't be but try to be is where the problems begin
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 100 of 219 (247218)
09-29-2005 8:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by Funkaloyd
09-29-2005 8:27 AM
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Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
funkaloyd writes: Iano, how can anything predict the future with 100% accuracy if the Universe is not deterministic in nature? The trouble we get into here is trying to apply human understanding of the way things are to how God works. "Predict", "Deterministic" etc, are human words that is shackled by things like linear time, space and our own comprehension of how things work. God operates in eternity not time. We have no insight into eternity and how things might work there (although the are analogies that might help to get some kind of grasp on it). To say God sees what we will do in the future is slightly misleading. God sees our past, present and future now. There is no such thing as future with God. All our lives are seen in the present by him. (he calls himself "I AM" indicating the idea of ever-present) You (or I) won't understand it until you are eternal. Hopefully you will be on the 'right' side of the line when that occurs. I didn't see anything in the link which suggested something from nothing. A black hole is not nothing for example This message has been edited by iano, 29-Sep-2005 01:53 PM
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Funkaloyd, posted 09-29-2005 8:27 AM | | Funkaloyd has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 102 of 219 (247225)
09-29-2005 9:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Heathen
09-28-2005 5:26 PM
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Re: We meet again
Crevo writes: and I've said a few times earlier... it's not so much that foreknowledge 'influences' the choice, but the creation of the environment, the situation, the person making the choice. God created all these so he had total influence on the choice Man cannot create free-choice because man cannot conceive of a way to do it. The reason God can't do it is because you can't do it. But your not God. In Genesis, God created the heavens and the earth, animals of all sort, man from dust (who he then breath life into) Yet this Creator, who can do such things that we can't, can't give us choice. How do you figure that. The reason for wanting this situation of no choice is singular: Choice means we're culpable - and we would know it. No choice means no culpability. A second rate Laywer would get us off on the Day of Judgement. "M'lud, the accused stands before you but it wasn't his fault. His choices were afterall pre-destined by your honour, thus I must insist that his sins be lodged to your account and that you, your honour must be the one to go to hell" This is the Alice in Wonderland logic which gets applied it you follow the no choice thinking to it's natural conclusion (Curiously, the one thing we have to attain in order to be saved is acceptance of our culpability before God. When we realise and accept that fact and realise we are bankrupt before a holy (meaning he never does wrong) God - then we can be saved. By his grace....) "It is by Grace you are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast (of having done anything to save himself)"
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Heathen, posted 09-28-2005 5:26 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 107 of 219 (247297)
09-29-2005 12:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by Funkaloyd
09-29-2005 9:22 AM
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Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
Modulous'link writes: ...the disturbance... The disturbance...is not nothing, if it exists it is something - a disturbance. What this article showed me is that there is more to know about matter and energy than what we already know. "Something from-something-we-don't-understand-yet-so-call-it-nothing" is not quite what I meant. The article demonstrates why it's called Quantum theory, not Quantum fact...
But even if we remove the word "predict" and assume that God has a special perception of time, every moment of time must still be set in concrete for his knowledge to work. And it's set as he chose it to be. " it has been said, with some justification, that no-one really understands General Relativity Theory". If we don't understand something as miniscule as this (in relation to a Creator God) then to try to work your way logically to figure what constraints may apply to omnipotence is not logical. Omnipotence means omnipotence. If God gave us choice (and biblically choice, or rather sufficient choice for God's purpose for us, is all over the place) then it is safe to say he could do it.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Funkaloyd, posted 09-29-2005 9:22 AM | | Funkaloyd has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 108 of 219 (247302)
09-29-2005 12:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 106 by Modulous
09-29-2005 11:49 AM
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Re: We meet again
Modulus writes: God can do two logically contradictory things because God can do anything. I haven't said or implied this.
God can be fallibly infallible God is infallible. He never makes a mistake. Our not agreeing with his reasons doesn't mean he makes a mistake. Thats logical
God can be omnipresent, but need to ask where Adam is hiding Gods reasons for asking are his. It doesn't imply he didn't know where Adam was. Note that he walked with Adam in the garden. Did God in relating to Adam chose to limit his knowledge so as to ensure that Adam felt he wasn't being watched over all the time. So that Adam could make choices. Who makes a wrong choice with a gun to their head. Mystery here alright but not illogical.
God can be omnipotent, but powerless to give us strength without pain God designed the world in a way that had to be. The only logical way possible. He is wrath as well as love. He is also just. It is understandable just to want God to express his agreeable characteristics. Neurotic but understandable. It is not logical.
God can be benevelont but creates a world with full foreknowledge that millions upon millions will inevitably fall and be damned for it. What would you have him do. Create automatons? It is logically impossible to create free-willed automatons. Millions will perish through their own free-will. They may, at that time, say they would have been better off never having been born. But how can someone who was never born be better off. They wouldn't have existed to be anything. That too is logically impossible
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2005 11:49 AM | | Modulous has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 113 of 219 (247565)
09-30-2005 6:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 109 by Modulous
09-29-2005 1:39 PM
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Re: We meet again
modulous writes: God created everything with full knowledge of what will happen, but isn't responsible for it? Iano wanders out of the pub, glares bleary-eyed around the car park for his motorbike. Staggering over to it, he says to himself "Think, hic!, I'll give her a good rip down to the chip hic! shop. Rounding a tight corner at high speed he loses control, mounts a kerb and ploughs into a woman pushing her kid in a pram. All three killed instantly. Who do you blame? Yamaha? Choice Modulous, Choice.
Can He make a mistake if He wants to? Illogical. No one can deliberately make a mistake
OK, so God is omnipresent and cannot choose to be otherwise. His power is thus limited? Omnipresent means omnipresent. Jesus is God but in human form was not omnipresent (he couldn't be in two places at once) nor omniescent (there were things he patently didn't know). God as Father knows everything but God has three forms. God walking in the Garden is perhaps God in a form that doesn't know everything. He could conclude in this form that Adam has eaten because of the evidence (not omniesence): Adam said he was naked. There was only one way for Adam to know this. Sin.
So God is constrained by logic. He created a universe knowing that he would cause pain and suffering so that a few could join Him in Heaven. All of this was inevitable, and there was no other way for Him to achieve these ends? God isn't constrained by logic. He is logic - an aside but worth repeating. He created a situation where people could chose to cause pain and suffering by their actions - if that's what they wanted to do. Choice means accepting the consequences of choice. God accepted the consequences of giving man choice. I suggest there is no other way to achieve giving someone choice other than accepting that they may not chose the way you want. If choice then it is inevitable that choice will be exercised. Modified Modulous
I WANT to achieve end X RELATIONAL LOVE - JUST LIKE WE HAVE. To achieve this end I will create the universe, and man WITH CHOICE TO LOVE ME OR NOT. Man will fall BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO. I CAN PLAN AHEAD TO ENSURE NO MATTER WHAT CHOICE IS MADE, END X WILL COME ABOUT. RIGHT HE CHOSE AGAINST ME, THE PLAN CARRIES ON. I'll expel him from Eden and shortly afterwards WHEN MANS CHOICE RESULTS IN THE WORLD BEING full of corruption I'LL EXERCISE WRATH (WHICH IS WHAT I AM) destroy all the wicked men (and lots of animals too THEY'LL NEED OIL IN A FEW THOUSAND/BILLION YEARS) and leave only a few WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS. They will repopulate the earth, it will get corrupted again DUE TO EXERCISE OF CHOICE, and eventually I will descend FROM the kingdom of heaven WITH A KEY PART OF MY PLAN - SALVATION BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO WRATH AND JUSTICE I AM ALSO LOVE, cast the devil into hell for a thousand years and the righteous will join us in the kingdom of heaven and I will have acheieved end X. This message has been edited by iano, 30-Sep-2005 12:00 PM
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2005 1:39 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: We meet again
Crash writes: "Don't touch the saw!" Iano sternly warns his infants, who are barely old enough to talk. "The consequences will be dire in the extreme, I assure you!" He then leaves. The title of the thread is Choice/No Choice. Your presuming none was possible without making a case for it. You say "infants". Adam and Eve weren't infants. You say "he then leaves" but this is not suggested. All have conscience. Eve put up resistance to satans temptation. Where did this resistance come from? We do not know what she understood by his warning but it was sufficient to require lies and deceit on the part of satan in order to overcome it. 1)Adam and Eve would have known they were not God. That they were 'lesser' beings than God 2)Adam and Eve were told by God they would die 3)Adam and Eve were told they could be like God - this was desirable - thus backing up sentence 1) 4)Adam and Eve were told they wouldn't die What God told them was countered by Satan. Leaving a perfectly balanced choice up to them - and them alone. God cannot be blamed for their choice, neither can satan
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2005 5:47 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 137 of 219 (248536)
10-03-2005 1:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 135 by Asgara
10-03-2005 10:11 AM
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Re: We meet again
Asgara writes: Of course the Satan character can't be blamed, he isn't even part of the story. Who is the person referred to in Genesis 3:15, the offspring of the woman who will crush the serpents head and whose heel the serpent will bruise. (Hint: God had a plan of salvation then). Whose goose was cooked on the cross (Hint: it wasn't Jesus)
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by Asgara, posted 10-03-2005 10:11 AM | | Asgara has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: We meet again
PurpleYouko writes: Compared to God they were. they also had no knowledge of good and evil. Compared to God we are all infants in our understanding. Which would imply the choices you make aren't choice either. It's not a question of absolute God-like choice it whether there is sufficient choice for God to fulfill his plan. If your playing poker you play with 4 aces in the deck. You play within the confines of the game. 200 aces might make for a differnt game but poker says 4 aces are sufficient. Sufficient choice you have. Sufficient choice they had. God says you have sufficient choice. Otherwise he could not condemn you. He wouldn't be just. If 'die' = sepiofuasefopi then why not 'eat' = \epiofjasopfij and 'day' = fweoifhwefioj. In other words Adam and Eve had no concept of any words God used. That's nonsense...
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: We meet again
PurpleYouko writes: No. Only your eat analogy is nonsense. A&E knew perfectly well how to eat, what it meant to eat and every concievable part of the concept of eating. they did it all the time. Besides the fact that someone had to put it into them the idea of eating when designing them, they also had to be told that this action was described by the word 'eat' How did they know the meaning of the word. God used the word 'surely' What experience had they of 'unsure' before that? Or was that another word which meant nothing
Besides this, you still haven't shown me any way in which any decision that they made would have had a shread of effect on the outcome anyway since God knew from the start that they would "fall". And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man. How can you know what is possible with God? Your (human) understanding of what is and isn't possible is not the limit of what is and isn't possible with God. Or maybe you disagree...
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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