Does Peer Pressure stifle the acceptance of the obvious?

I rejoice that you feel that way, it is honest, thank you. I disagree. I think it is possible for an individual to know. It may not be possible for one to prove to another that God does exist. The only way is through love. Then do you relate to the fictitious story I posted earlier?
I do in some way. So do many people I know.
What was it that made you an unbeliever?
Did you only believe by faith? As I have been saying all along. The day I started feeling God, is either the day I went crazy, or the day God blessed me with his Holy presence. Which he continues to do till this day, on a daily basis, even when I am screwing up.I have been in here awhile, and my belief of what I feel to be God has been put to the test over and over again. I am still here. Which may not mean crap, but it is something. I mean, what the heck am I doing?
I've heard all the explanations. I came up with them myself way before it was ever suggested to me in here. None of them make any sense, or fit all the personal, just barely subjective, evidences. Nothing can explain the theory of no God to me. It is not preconceived either, because believing is new to me.It would also be one thing if I was telling myself all the lies, but there is 10x more outside influence to it, than what I could possibly make up in my own head.I will give one small what you might think wacked out example, of a just barely evidence.I went to a worship conference with the worship team from my church. We play Christian rock there. The whole conference was very powerful, and full of revelation. But on the first night, after it was all over, I left the hall and was walking through the hotel with my wife. I started laughing, then started laughing harder. I then felt I should go back to the conference hall, to see if anyone was still wround. When I got there, there was 35 people on the floor laughing uncontrollably. It was an overwelming feeling of joy, a feeling of love from the Holy Spirit. There was this guy, and he was praying for people. He didn't say any words, just laughed and prayed for them through laughter. The people would fall down laughing. (ok I know this all sounds crazy) But we were having fun, and felt nothing but joy. I have never really felt anything like this before, except when I was a child, I remained open minded about it all. The next 3 nights many more people went down laughing in the corner, groups of people, although I did not experience that again. No there was no drugs in the vent system, I didn't wake up with a hang over the next morning. This is all fine and good, and could be explained by many things. But the kicker was when I went back to my church that Sunday, we had felt so blessed by the whole event, that we started sharing about with other people. As I was talking to this one guy explaining everything, and before I got to the part about the laughter, he fell on the floor laughing for about 45 mins. Ok...... then I started telling another person later on, who did not see when the first guy had fell onthe floor, and again he fell on the floor laughing, then another later on again. I told none of them about the laughter. there were more things like this that did not involve laughing but other things. It was like almost as though whatever we experienced during that time at the conference, we carried it back with us, and it just magically transfered to those around us. There is no logical explnantion for it.
Call me a wacko, thats fine. But it was a most innocent joyful time of my life. I will never forget it. I fully realize that some of you may now look at me and say, he's off his rocker, he's a nut, but I am just being honest here. I am open to explanations for it. It happened, and you know what, I won't deny it. I have shared it with you, in hopes that you have figured some of my character and integerty out by now, that you just might not think I am crazy. I sure hope not. I pray right now that as you read this you would experience some sort of joy in your life, and there would be a release of a burden you may have, through the power of the Holy Spirit, and in Jesus's name. May you be free.

Ah ha!!!! Right, exactly. How can we love him if we don't know he exists either. But if you don't know him, then you can't love him, so the first commandment cannot be fulfilled in your life. That is one of the reasons I never felt as though I wold go to hell, or do I think you are either.

Too true Bingo, this is the absolute core of it. Yes, I could not agree more. I could not find the words to express it as succinctly as that, Bad from sir, bad form. And despite being an attack on Shraff, it is a parable about some one throwing a tantrum, and sulking, like a petulant child for not getting their way. It was not about apostasy in any way, and is a barely veiled attempt at labeling someone who has left the church as childish, petulant, mean, self-centered and altogether not a very nice person at all so, really the church is better off with out them . .This also is another example of the way in which those with religion try to ostracize and demonize those who fall away from the church. This is the kind of thing that those who are wavering have a fear of being on the receiving end. It’s this exact kind of attitude that is used to try corral those that wander. And if they do break their ties they are branded no good, evil, and possessing a ”mean streak’As I said, bad form indeed. But I say God doesn’t exist and thus isn’t there to ask. Though there is something that taps me on my metaphorical shoulder and points out what I should and should not be doing. I sometimes talk to this thing and tell it where to go. This thing is my conscience it is the result of my own internal moral map and experiences and is shaped by the world around me. If I’m being honest I would have to say that to me that all you seem to have done in finding God is to have given a name to your conscience. Ok if you like that kind of thing but I think you will find if you really look inside your self, that your god is, in fact, you looking over your own shoulder. That’s good , so long as you also ad that the curch has no right to level any kind of abuse towards someone who stands up and says “ I don’t believe any more” But many can’t. they are afraid to do so. The ones that do escape tend to be the stronger ones who are adamant not to compromise themselves to maintain acceptance. Yes, though I would say that it is love, understanding and mutual respect that we should make a shining example throughout our lives and not IMPOSE anything. Imposition leads to control, abuse and stifling of the other, and fights against the core ideas of Love, understanding and respect.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 05-11-2005 04:23 PMThis message has been edited by ohnhai, 05-11-2005 04:24 PM

Easy enough to figure out whether you are suffering from a delusion or have the HG as an ISP link to God. Next time you are in contact, ask for the formula for a cure to one of the multiplicity of diseases that beset mankind. What`s that Scripture about 'ask and it will be given to you?'
I wait for the apologetics session to begin.

who are you replying to?

Hold on a minute. I am making the church out to be the bad guy there, not schraf. She did nothing wrong in the parable. That would only explain why I used to be the way I was, not the way I am now. It doesn't explain everything, like I said I have heard all the explnantions before. I asked myself that way before I ever got in here. Right, and what I an saying also is that the church needs to take a good long hard look at itself if that happens.I believe the church is going through that right now, and will continue to decline, until they start getting right.
Actually I feel they will never get it right (most churches) and a new church will arise when people such as yourself find God. You sound like you know more about who and what God should be than the churches, most people in this forum who don't believe do know who and what. I believe these are the people God wants to raise up, to set things straight.

You see, before I 'pray' to god, I have to believe in God.And you are saying that I should believe to get a response, so I can get evidence that there is a god.Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

The first commandment is 'Tho shalt have no god before me'.It's the first one out of the big 10.If you are an athiest or agnostic, you don't have any god before the big guy in the sky... therefore you don't break that commandment.

No nothing at all except become introverted mean and unapproachable when the church denied her request. The church may have had very good reasons to refuse but the Shraff from the story totally over reacted, left the church and became a bad person and all that . But I’m willing to accept you meant it as a story of how the church can make mistakes and inserted Shraff’s name for ”fun’ but it didn’t read that way (attested to by the fact several people here pulled you up on it)This message has been edited by ohnhai, 05-11-2005 11:46 PM

So you checked the whole system? You are one thorough guy! That's the thing though. I prayed and believed my socks off, and received no Holy Spirit, or any experience. Probably because I wasn't in a crowd, so the parts of my brain that fabricate religious experience wasn't stimulated.Infact I've tried like stink to have any kind of experience, for many years, but when I see it on the TV, these guys getting hit on the head and falling to the floor, I think "God, you know that my belief is stronger than theirs, yet you apparently put on this farcical show of an idiot in a white suit tapping people's heads, and they pretend to be drunk or whatever". Yet God never gave me any kind of HS experience. Probably I asked, atleast twenty times, and I got nothing.Your group laughing on the floor sounds like hysterics to me. I couldn't act like that if you payed me. Laughing at thin air? How much did they pay you? (Only kiddin') I don't think you're nuts. I'm just thinking that there probably is a natural explanation for your group laughter-event. Seldom is a skeptic wrong when he's gets his trusty instruments out.I can't believe God would let people starve yet make another group of people laugh. Understand the problem? So, tell me my problem if I have one.I don't recall any of these experiences being mentioned by Jesus, nor why I should believe I have to go to a group of people and have some guy push me over, in order to experience God.P.S. You're a decent guy, and I understand why you believe as you do. I also understand that trying to explain these things rationally, is like describing chocolate, in a scientific capacity, which in no way is any substitute for the experience. So you see, I am aware of all the factors. God bless.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-05-2005 09:18 AM

When you come home, and your not sure if there is someone home, you call out, anyone home? Who are you talking to? Your calling out to see if anyone responds, not because you believe or don't believe anyones home.I am sick and tired of the BS statement "And you are saying that I should believe to get a response, so I can get evidence that there is a god."I never said that. That is what yo belive. It is a false belief. Either God is there, or he isn't. The bible says we must seek him, not he seeks us, even though he does. You don't have to believe in God to seek him. If he answers you one day, what you gonna do? Write it off as voices in your head, and then go see a shrink?Who are you talking to when your alone? Who are you sharing your thoughts with? Go ahead, say no-one. I challenge that. We all at one point or another have looked up at the sky in fustration, and said "God if your there.........." You didn't believe in him then did you?Get real.

Yes you do. You create your own god, yourself. You make all the rules, based on what you feel is right or wrong, from what society teaches you, and your own personal experience. You then worship it, by going out and doing that which you believe is ok to do, and then condem the things you don't think are ok.What I am saying is that, I don't know if you go to hell or not because of you doing that to yourself. I'll leave it up to God and you. I am hoping God judges us based on what we know, not what the bible says, because most of us don't even really understand the bible, or know God personally, but you do have a sense of right and wrong, and if you keep doing wrong to benefit yourself, for your own personal gain, I find that wrong.If you think in your heart that you are doing good, then God will acknowledge that.
If you know you are doing wrong, then he will also acknowledge that.Either way we can be forgiven, thanks to Jesus.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 11-05-2005 04:48 PM

No actually your the only one who pulled me up on it, and schraf knows that I kid around with stories like that. She didn't get offended, it was a fictional story, like I said before I wrote the story. I like schraf, thats why I pick on her, and she loves me not in that way, but she also picks on me, its all good. I only wish good things for her in her life.Maybe your so used to being condemed by people who profess they are Christian, that this doen't make any sense to you. I totally understand that.Yes, in the story it's the church that is screwed up, and I clearly expressed that the decsion the church made was not based on what they felt was wrong or right, but was to protect there own personal interest of not losing power.There are many things to learn from that story:#1 I like schraf, as a person
#2 People in the church can hurt other people for life, and keep them from God. That is why we can't always look for God in a church, or through the people that run the church.
#3 Schraf was a victim in that story the same way Jesus was when he was sentenced to die on the cross. The leaders of that church are no better than the preists who sent Jesus to die because they didn't want to lose their power.
#4 Church should be about sharing love, not judging people. Jesus came to save, not to judge, we are supposed to be Jesus like.
#5 You should be allowed to be who you are in church, more than anywhere else. Doesn't the world do enough to us, that we have to have it happen to us in a church of all places? How the heck are we supposed to come to know the Lord, when crap like this is happening all over. Churches slogan right now is "hey come to church and get molested, and find Jesus" What a joke. I hope people like you and I tear down all churches, and start it over the right way.

I own a HVAC company, I am qualified
Actually if it was drugs, then there is no explnantion for what happened when I came back from Mass. to N.Y. I don't believe you need to be in a crowd. I have prayed for people, and as I was praying I got words put in my head for them, words I cannot even remember, or think I am capable of coming up with on my own, and then they were touched by the Holy Spirit, and then commited themselves to Christ, right there on the spot. It wasn't me, I am not capable of it. Well put. I have never fallen over myself, but Idid make up my mind to not mock it. It is possible that what the people feel is real, even though the minister is a fake. The bible says God will use unlikely people to help spread his word. Just look at the sucess of the Passion of the Christ.I don't know why you haven't had an experience yet. Maybe there is still some things that you have to work out, or go through before God raises you up, and calls you out. Maybe what you feel right now is part of it. I do pray for you. You know what, I don't understand it either, but I do understand this, it was through the same power that provided that laughter, I now make a point to help starving children, where as I didn't before. So my laughter has multiplied several times over to help many children, and people of all walks of life.God never promises us a smooth go of it, only the power to get through it. You may want to rethink that response. Jesus healed many people by touch. One woman got healed just from touching his robe. He then equipped the disciples to go and do the same, and said they would do that, and greater things.But yes your right, you absolutly don't need to be touched by a person to be saved, I wasn't. Can you think of any possible explanation why I would experience that laughter on a Thursady in Mass. Then on Sunday come back to NY, start talking to someone, not even mentioning the laughter, but just sharing the word I recieved there, and they fall down laughing?All the stuff that happened at the conference could be explained by many things. We were happy and laughing, whats the big deal right? Or whatever. But the other part has no explanation.Thanks Mike.

Anyone who might wonder if they are kidding themselves, or are saved. Got to formulate some kind of a test for those are undecided.