Does Peer Pressure stifle the acceptance of the obvious?

I was musing about the notion that some people might be holding on to a set of inherited and quite thoroughly discredited ideas in their belief paradigm-- not because of any remaining real conviction in those ideas but because of a subconscious fear of the social ramifications of denouncing the ideas taught to them by their family, peers and social group. And, perhaps, also a fear of up-setting God.To me it seems, there is also a fear of admitting that the implications of science diminish our place in the universe--as if there was something to be ashamed of in admitting our place as wondrous example of the amazing diversity and scope of the marvel that is life!In science there no shame in getting something wrong. It can be initially embarrassing but acceptable so long as you don’t dig in and throw a tantrum when all your peers show you all the evidence that highlights why you are wrong.In regard to Religion on the other hand, I have read of many cases where people have left their church and they have become the social stigma of their community. In more extreme cases these people have been hounded, tormented, and even killed for even questioning the teachings and beliefs in light of new discoveries and facts.Peer pressure is a powerful thing. Peer punishment is truly something to be feared. In religion, especially, there is clearly a well of shame and embarrassment, and not least, fear for some to accept that the wonder that us humans are having been part of the process and not a special specific creation.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 02-11-2005 09:10 AM

Not at all. I was simply talking about the assumed (on my part) anxiety of religious people when faced with a personal revelation that their doctrine is not as robust as they once believed.You would find that half of Manchester (if not the world) suddenly thought you scum if you changed your red jersey for a blue one. I don’t deny that. Peer pressure is a universal thing when interests or beliefs cause a clumping of opinion. I didn’t actually suggest it was unique to persons of religion.I was simply suggesting that the history of reprisals that the churches have dished out physically, verbally, and mentally might be, at a subconscious level, causing those who have become doubters to falter in taking the final step, and renouncing their belief in certain doctrinal ideologies. (not necessarily all doctrinal ideologies, you understand.)

Oh the Inquisition . you think the persecution of non- and ex-believers ended then? But anyway I did say ”Churches’ plural, (with the intent to include all of them: should have said 'religions' in hindsight). Religion’s history with intimidation is not at an end, not by a long shot. In most cases it is not the logging saws or spiked brazier chairs any more but more subtle and psychological pressure. But please note, neither am I saying strong intimidation is the sole playground of religion. It just so happens religion was my topic and focus.Nor am I saying that all persons of faith feel trapped like this. I couldn’t possibly make that claim. I’m sure that most people of faith out there have 100% conviction in their doctrine being 100% correct, and as such they have no reason to doubt. No reason to question. No reason to stand up and say ”what you have taught me is wrong’. They have don’t have to fear the unknown of what their parents will think, what their friends will say or do, how the community will treat them after they stand up and say you are wrong, or how that confession affects their standing with God. All I was trying to do was float a new topic, a new idea for people to mull over and think on. To help people recognise this fear in them should it indeed be there.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 03-11-2005 02:43 AM

there is THIS one

Please read my other post in this thread I believe I indicate clearly enough what I believe is the source of fear in some. I am glad for you. ( no really) if your faith is your discovery,your creaion, your own understanding of that around us then that is as you say a very real sense of freedom. I congratulate you on creating that space for your self. Not many can do it. You don’t feel the fear I am on about because you have constructed your own faith around you;you dont doubt at all because these are your beliefs not a set you were told to believe.But I’m sure you agree there are many who find themselves being brought up in an ideology that isn’t right for them and they know it. The true & honest thing to do would be to leave that ideology behind and seek their own. But they are scared of speaking out and daring to question. OK. Mildly off topic, but for what am I forgiven?

But the topic here is not about suppressing the ”truth about god’ to ourselves in the glare of peer pressure to go to the dark side that is atheism, but the hesitation and fear ( however subconscious) at overcoming the peer pressure against publicly denouncing any particular idea in your religion’s doctrine.It’s about overcoming the pressure and anxiety over publicly denouncing your belief in something that used to believe was true.You have failed to grasp that I’m not talking about every religious person, and seem to have read that I have implied that all those of religion feel this fear, and would discard their religion in an instant if they could overcome the peer pressure and fear of peer reprisals.There are those who doubt their religion, there are those who don’t speak up because of the effect this would have to their peer standing. There are those who have weighed up everything and realise that they don’t believe any more. Is it right that they should keep quiet simply because of the reaction they fear they are likely to receive should that declare such?You can proclaim Gods love for us all you want. You can claim all you like that we would see God if we opened our minds to him. You can claim that we are in pain, regret and sorrow because we are missing God till the cows come home, but this does not answer the question at hand: and is just preaching to un-converted.Please try and understand that your preaching is a good example of the serious, low grade pressure that gets constantly piled from all sides into the thoughts, fears, and doubts of confused believers who realise that they don’t believe anymore. ABE- or at least are trying to come to terms with that posibility- ABEHow can anyone religious who wishes to say I believe the theory of Evolution is correct, do so with full confidence in that assertion with many, many voices around him whispering, “god loves you, god created every thing. God will not love you, and will send you to hell for believing in Evilution. Evilution is wrong. God made everything. If you say he didn’t you are going to hell . . .. “ ad infenitum . This message has been edited by ohnhai, 04-11-2005 07:00 PM

Too true Bingo, this is the absolute core of it. Yes, I could not agree more. I could not find the words to express it as succinctly as that, Bad from sir, bad form. And despite being an attack on Shraff, it is a parable about some one throwing a tantrum, and sulking, like a petulant child for not getting their way. It was not about apostasy in any way, and is a barely veiled attempt at labeling someone who has left the church as childish, petulant, mean, self-centered and altogether not a very nice person at all so, really the church is better off with out them . .This also is another example of the way in which those with religion try to ostracize and demonize those who fall away from the church. This is the kind of thing that those who are wavering have a fear of being on the receiving end. It’s this exact kind of attitude that is used to try corral those that wander. And if they do break their ties they are branded no good, evil, and possessing a ”mean streak’As I said, bad form indeed. But I say God doesn’t exist and thus isn’t there to ask. Though there is something that taps me on my metaphorical shoulder and points out what I should and should not be doing. I sometimes talk to this thing and tell it where to go. This thing is my conscience it is the result of my own internal moral map and experiences and is shaped by the world around me. If I’m being honest I would have to say that to me that all you seem to have done in finding God is to have given a name to your conscience. Ok if you like that kind of thing but I think you will find if you really look inside your self, that your god is, in fact, you looking over your own shoulder. That’s good , so long as you also ad that the curch has no right to level any kind of abuse towards someone who stands up and says “ I don’t believe any more” But many can’t. they are afraid to do so. The ones that do escape tend to be the stronger ones who are adamant not to compromise themselves to maintain acceptance. Yes, though I would say that it is love, understanding and mutual respect that we should make a shining example throughout our lives and not IMPOSE anything. Imposition leads to control, abuse and stifling of the other, and fights against the core ideas of Love, understanding and respect.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 05-11-2005 04:23 PMThis message has been edited by ohnhai, 05-11-2005 04:24 PM

who are you replying to?

No nothing at all except become introverted mean and unapproachable when the church denied her request. The church may have had very good reasons to refuse but the Shraff from the story totally over reacted, left the church and became a bad person and all that . But I’m willing to accept you meant it as a story of how the church can make mistakes and inserted Shraff’s name for ”fun’ but it didn’t read that way (attested to by the fact several people here pulled you up on it)This message has been edited by ohnhai, 05-11-2005 11:46 PM

You know I am beginning to like you. And I’m developing a respect for your views. If I seem to be hard on you on certain things here and there it’s because I’m doing so to learn what you really feel, by having to staunchly defend a statement several times using different language and concepts each time, when you are viewed through the diffraction pattern of your multiple defences a far clearer picture of your stance becomes viewable.In this light I am realising that you, like me, have a real problem with the religious entities of the day. Hulking great leviathans of accumulated power, wealth and corruption who twist and miss-represent the ideals of God and Jesus to their own ends. I believe that you represent the truer face of what Christianity was intended to be. ( but I would need to know more details about your church before I could say for certain).As for tearing down the churches to start again . heh!.. Don’t tempt me. Don’t tempt me. I would love to do nothing more than to bring the church low. But despite all that let’s keep the buildings. They may have been constructed for all the wrong reasons, and against the teachings of the bible, but they are marvellous monuments to mans ingenuity and skill, and destroying them would be repeating the of sin of the dissolution of the monasteries. If you must build meeting places for congregation then build simple cheep buildings of plain utility.

Yes I can.It must have been one hell of a good joke......

leave my ass out of this..........

to quote the mormon lesbian I just watched a documentary on, " there are many who talk the talk, but precious few who walk the walk."

[qs]tell me my middle name and my date of birth[\qs]johnaugust 3rd

worth a try.Was I even close?