Does Peer Pressure stifle the acceptance of the obvious?

Laughter is contagious. My sister laughs hysterically when I am laughing. I don't know why, but there's nothing funnier to her, than my laughter.Maybe there was some suggestion you didn't quite notice before. Maybe you seen someone laughing, but didn't register it consciously, but you did subconsciously, so you went back to get in on the fun.This is my explanation of what chocolate tastes like, I don't expect you to exchange your experience for it. (I don't expect you to believe me).That's the thing about an objective analysis; It's boring, and I don't expect a person of character to exchange their experience for a boring explanation. But in all likelyhood, the objective evaluation is probably the correct explanation of events, if we are honest with ourselves.So when you said, earlier on, that you can "know" God exists, I have to disagree. Formerly I would have agreed, but the fact is that there is always a natural explanation for the occurences we attribute to the supernatural. And I'm okay with that nowadays. I know what you mean. It's an incentive. I lost this incentive when I had my three weeks of atheism, as I didn't feel any pressure to give, or that there was nay universal or heavenly ramifications. But I have to admitt, the feeling I get of being clean, when I give, brought me back to God, which is why I say to people, that God is atleast my good works.

You know I am beginning to like you. And I’m developing a respect for your views. If I seem to be hard on you on certain things here and there it’s because I’m doing so to learn what you really feel, by having to staunchly defend a statement several times using different language and concepts each time, when you are viewed through the diffraction pattern of your multiple defences a far clearer picture of your stance becomes viewable.In this light I am realising that you, like me, have a real problem with the religious entities of the day. Hulking great leviathans of accumulated power, wealth and corruption who twist and miss-represent the ideals of God and Jesus to their own ends. I believe that you represent the truer face of what Christianity was intended to be. ( but I would need to know more details about your church before I could say for certain).As for tearing down the churches to start again . heh!.. Don’t tempt me. Don’t tempt me. I would love to do nothing more than to bring the church low. But despite all that let’s keep the buildings. They may have been constructed for all the wrong reasons, and against the teachings of the bible, but they are marvellous monuments to mans ingenuity and skill, and destroying them would be repeating the of sin of the dissolution of the monasteries. If you must build meeting places for congregation then build simple cheep buildings of plain utility.

Yes I can.It must have been one hell of a good joke......

Probably the one about an atheist and an ass----

leave my ass out of this..........

I am a pretty observant person for the most part, and if I did see anything that would have triggered it, it would have been so suddle that it would have been too insignificant to start a session of luaghter. I was already laughing before I went back in, I think you missed that part. Plus this doesn't explain what happened when I got back home. This may have something to do with you never having that experience we talked about earlier. I personally can't understand how one could switch off their belief that easily. It makes me wonder just how strong the faith was before you started.I say this because I can relate to the level of belief you are currently experience. I don't want to say for sure, because I don't know enough about you, or do I want to judge you, so take it at face value. But before I had my religious experience, I accepted Jesus as my saviour by faith. It wasn't until several years later did I actually feel the Holy Spirit, which in an instant changed my whole way of thinking, cured me of certain mental aliments, and made me look 10 years younger. It has also made it harder (I don't want to say impossible) for people to lie to me in person, and probably in here too, because the spirit of truth rests within me now. I try to make my body a place that it would rest. Our bodies are a temple, and we are to treat them as such. Becoming an atheist would be a step in the wrong direction, but maybe a necessary one for you. There is a joke about getting into heaven about that one. We are only saved by grace, not works. But if we believe in Jesus, then we try to follow Jesus. Being saved is an evolving process. I don't believe you just accept Jesus and then thats it.I believe there are great things on the horizon for you.*edit for spelling, think I would have learned to use the preview button by now*This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 11-05-2005 11:21 PM

Thank you, and what you are doing to me, is exactly what I want done to me. IT was half the reason why I stay in these forums, because my faith, and my God gets tested over and over, from many different angles. Through this process, I have learned just where my faith should lie, and how I should present it. Plus seeing if I am crazy or whatever.There are some mornings where I read over 500 verses to help define a Godly side of a debate, thank God for computers.....lol. So I learn by reading the bible, and doing an active study to defend a position in a debate, and by learning about worldly things from people with a modern view. I grew up in this modern view world, but there is always more to learn. I am at the conclusion now, that no amount of words is going to convince anyone in here of any God. It is only love that will. But how do you love someone through an internet forum? Yes, I was sick of church from the time I was 8 yrs old. I am 40 now. I have wrote my experience in here that I had with the catholic church that showed me just how bad it was. I figured it out when I was 8. Maybe this has something to do with when Jesus says we are to be like children to get into heaven. I have always been the kind of person to butt heads with authority, so I didn't succumb to any peer pressure from the church at that age. But I see your point of the OP, and how it could have happened would I have grown up in a different time, or a different city.My church? It's pretty cool. The only way we are traditional, is in being non-traditional. It is tough though. We call it operating in a fore-runner spirit. When your out in front your more likely to make mistakes. Plus you are dealing with culture, and cultural acceptance. All this while trying to remain true to scripture, and what Jesus taught us. It ain't easy. We have a few different kind of services, for the different levels of faith, but on Sunday mornings, you can come in with jeans and a hat on, get a cup of coffee, and a donut, and sit at a table and listen to the message while eating and drinking We play rock and roll, and contemporary Christian, but if the spirit moves, we will just make stuff up for an hour, and praise the Lord from our hearts. If you want to grab a banner and walk around the place, you can, if you want to do back flips off your chair you can, if you want to grab a flag and do a warrior flag dance you can. If you have what you feel is a gift from God, you can tell us, and then we would train you, or help you get trained in improving that gift to its fullest potential, and sent you on your way to use it. The church isn't looking to hold anyone back from their calling. The bible doesn't say: get people to come to church, and keep them there, and take their money, it says: Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.Build people up,
Works of service,
Built up the body,
Become mature,
Reach unity in the faith and knowledge of the Son.We accept Jesus by faith, then by being built up in this way, you come to know him. You become his witness. How do you become his witness?Acts 1: 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."That was what Jesus told his disciples. You become a witness when you recieve power of the Holy Spirit, not join the JW, or light a candle, or pray to a Saint, or fly a plane into a building, or sell green miracle rags on TV, and push people over (yes some of those guys actually push you over against your will).All this so that you may become who God designed you to be. Which is cool, because you already have a desire to be that person, you are just making it complete, by allowing it to happen, and not letting the world stop you. When you have God on your side, he will see to it that you will. Then babies can stop starving to death, and children can stop fighting other peoples wars, and people can get the medical care they need, and shelter, and knowledge to become self sustaining, and rithless leaders can be put in their place, from the church, and from outside the church. Because we will all stand for the same thing, God will show us, we won't make it up in our minds. Then we become a responsible race of humans, responsible for our own destiny. I see the whole world as a race of humans, one body. I think we only have ourselves to blame for all the bad in the world. I believe God gave us enough so that we wouldn't have to starve or suffer. We just don't follow how we are supposed to do it.But there is always a battle between the flesh (mind) and the spirit, and we can only try our best. But with true guidance from God, we can overcome tradition, and lies, and be like one body.If this stuff makes sense to you, it's because I believe I speak in the spirit, the spirit of truth, not some ulterior motive. I only wish to edify you , and make you whole (not there is really anything missing), and help you gain that knowledge of Christ. you will know when it is him, we won't have to make him up like a fairy tale. Our church is a very plain building, and as a matter of fact it doesn't even have the word church outside. I drove past it for 10 years, and never knew it was a church, lol. We are going to buid it bigger, and there will be a cafe, a youth lounge, a gym, a school. But none of that is important, but it is a place where we can meet, and plan to do his works, go out into the world, and our community, and help people, not just spread a word, but spread love.My band leader, and very good freind now, just came back from Australia. He went there as a part of Streams ministries, to teach a course called, The art of hearing God 101. I think he is going back there in 6 months possibly. Its a great course, and shows you how being a person of character, and integrety will let you hear from God.
At first I was like, pay money to learn about God? But if I took theology in college, I would be doing that. then I took the course, and I was blown away by it. You will look at the world in a different light after it, and gain knowledge and understanding of your spiritual surroundings. People have come to know the Lord through this course. It equips you.whew, long post.

I wish I could remeber it and make you laugh as well.

I`m glad you have found peace in your life, RR, because I think that`s all that most of us seek. If it spreads in your church and community, let`s hail that kind of peer pressure.The other side of the coin is that after meeting thousands of 'Christians' in my life, I met very few that I would want to emulate, and none who showed signs of inner peace. Some might have appeared to on the surface, but disturb that calm and the rage showed through. They usually were camp followers in that they parroted the dogma of their church/group and never questioned authority. They quoted chapter and verse and couldn`t discuss the context.They donned one face for their peers and another for the street. Rarely did I hear one of their flock challenge them.They rubbished other religions as of the devil and, again, rarely could explain the tenets of their targets. So I guess my departure from Christianity was due to Christians. Nothing I have seen in the time since has altered my opinions.

to quote the mormon lesbian I just watched a documentary on, " there are many who talk the talk, but precious few who walk the walk."

Sigh, You might be sick of it. However, that is the standard response you give.. (PRAY TO GOD AND HE'LL ANSWER), and when people try to do that you just claim they don't believe.That just looks like a case of self delusion to me. You are right though, god is either there nor not. The bible says a lot of things about god. So does the Vedas, So does the Koran. That doesn't mean it is true.YOu ask questions. I say when you pray, you are probing your inner conciousness, and you share your thoughts with yourself. I rather suspect you can't demonstrate any differently, although you might fervently believe otherwise.

Well, it was involuntary. I switched many things off, psychologically, over that more atheistic period.So, well, I would say it's just my own self evolving and adapting to the true situation of the way things are. I think many believers equate inexplicable events with the supernatural. Because something is unexplained, it doesn't mean it's a cause of the heavens. But sure, I suppose I would also be convinced if I had your experience.I've seen skeptical people become convinced by experience. The problem is, that like me, the majority of skeptics don't have any experience, even when they ask to. Well, I suppose you're attempting to say that my faith wasn't strong, so I didn't have an experience?But it was strong for many years infact. Infact, I was convinced I would have a religious experience at times, simply because my belief was through the roof, and I was almost "willing" it to happen, with 110% belief.Guess what I got? Silence. Tell me if the spirit of truth tells you if that's true. Bit vague isn't it. Could apply to anyone.I don't think great things are on the cards. And when I did it did me harm.If you do have the spirit of truth, tell me my middle name and my date of birth. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-06-2005 09:58 AM

[qs]tell me my middle name and my date of birth[\qs]johnaugust 3rd

I suppose that's a common name and date?Incorrect.

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Was this change a traumatic event? I'm just curious.

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Not at all. Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.My drifting away from belief happened gradually for many years. I can't say that my faith was ever terribly strong past the age of 10 or so.I had grown up in, let's say, a "difficult" household, and as I went off to college and became more independent, and began to heal myself from my past, the nominal faith just went away. I had only continued with it out of habit and rote, I think.