Does Peer Pressure stifle the acceptance of the obvious?

Well, you can complain about it all you want.
The only way its going to change is if it starts with people like us.
The people you speak of, have no authority. God will favor you, if you represent the truth.

I believe you where programed to give that response. It is empty.

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I disagree. I think it is possible for an individual to know. It may not be possible for one to prove to another that God does exist. The only way is through love.

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That's the same as it not being possible to know if God exists or not.Look, we do know that1) humans are social animalsand2) that we fear, above all else, the unknown (especially what happens after death)and3) that large groups of them, self-perpetuated over many generations can be convinced of the truth of something despite a lack of verifiable evidenceand4) many of us are quite willing to believe a comforting falsehood or fabricated story about that which frightens us than remain unsure or fearful about it.All of this we KNOW, riverrat. It isn't something that only I know and cannot convince others to believe out of love. It is simply a list of facts that anyone can observe for themselves. Nobody has to take anybody else's word for it, nor do they have to just believe.Now, you would like me to abandon this knowledge; to turn my back on it as though it doesn't exist.

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Then do you relate to the fictitious story I posted earlier?
I do in some way. So do many people I know.

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No, I can't say that I do.

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What was it that made you an unbeliever?

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That, I am afraid, is a much longer post than I should write here.But, let's say that the process by which I stopped believing in God was extremely similar to the process by which I stopped believing in Santa Claus.Really.

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Did you only believe by faith?

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Of course. What other reason would there be to believe?And as for the "laughing story"...I really wish you had a much more skeptical mind and understood how much you indulge in Confirmation Bias and Post-Hoc Reasoning. I also wish you could take a step back and gain some knowledge about human group dynamics and the power of the human mind to deceive itself.I think you greatly underestimate our vulnerability to all of these things.Now I have a question for you.If you could somehow find out, with certainty, if it were true that God exists and everything you believe about how God has intervened in your personal affairs, OR that all of your belief in God and all of your experiences that you think prove His existence and actions in your life were actually just you, working extra hard all this time to convince yourself of the truth because you so desperately want it to be true, would you?Would you want to know if you were deceiving yourself all this time, or not?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-06-2005 02:52 PM

I am not a fortune teller.
Neither is the spirit of truth. we wouldn't be gloryfing God if I did that. Let's assume there is a God. Then ask yourself, or tell me you think he didn't give you that experience.It's going to happen in your heart, not your head.A prophet guy I know once asked God, God if I had one little smidgen of your power, I could walk into every hospital, and heal all the sick. He felt as though God told him, If I gave you that power, you would screw it up.I completely understand that, because in my walk with God, I am finding out just how hard it is to be Holy Holy. I am trying to understand why. And trying to accept that we are saved by grace, and a willingness to believe. Quite a few things in my life have changed, but it's going to take years, for me to reverse what took years to get where it is.
Could I go through what job went through, and still follow God? I doubt it. My faith ain't there yet. I would probably still believe in him, but think I had a right to justifiable be angry at him, sorry God, please forgive me.I have experienced that he tests me with things, and if I do well, he increases the things he trusts me with. I feel like it's only going to get tougher, as long as I keep passing the tests. I still don't even realize what my calling is. I am good at many things, I have always been that way about everything. So I don't know what I am supposed to zero in on. But I keep getting amazed at what has been thrown my way.
My prayer is to not screw it up.There will always be doubt, with everyone. Thats why I say I can't judge the unbelievers, because we can all fall pray to doubt.Experiences, you bet!Its funny, onhai guessed August, I was thinking August too. I was born in August.I don't get words for people too often, and even less here on the internet. But I do feel like your future is bright. Yea its general, so what.

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No actually your the only one who pulled me up on it, and schraf knows that I kid around with stories like that. She didn't get offended, it was a fictional story, like I said before I wrote the story. I like schraf, thats why I pick on her, and she loves me not in that way, but she also picks on me, its all good. I only wish good things for her in her life.

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It's true, I'm not easily offended, and I do know that the Rat likes to kid. He's not very good at it, mind you, but hey, it's fun to watch him try.We only tease the ones we love, rat.

Nope. I just wish God would show you a glimpse of heaven, so you wouldn't have to fear death. No, I don't. What happened, happened. I saw it with my own eyes, and experienced it, and there was no logical explanantion for it. I am open to one if you could come up with one.Plus that was only a small fraction of what went on. But it was the best example, of something for which there is no explanantion. It couldn't have happened by chance, or if it did happen by chance, its about the same odds as gravity dissapearing in the next 24 hours. Please, I went over it my mind, and others too. I am a smart person schraf, not some idiot. I trouble shoot reality all day. I see when people are falling for stuff that is not real all the time. I hate it, but what can I do about it?Yes the human mind is decieved, in multiple layers.People were seeing orbs in pictures in my church. They though it was spirits, and that we now had the ability to see them because of the technology of didgital cameras. Yea, well almost, the comeras were cousing it, not capturing it. I had to break the news to everyone. I was the only one to figure it out. Some people weren't to happy with what I found, because it let them down. So yea, I know exactly what your talking about. Yes, that is why I question myself all the time, and test my faith all the time. That's half of what being in here is all about. People like you have helped to clarify to me, just what God is all about. It keeps me real, and it humbles me.Schraf, for years people though that no 2 finger prints were alike. There were experts in the field who testify, and put people away for it. Guess what, science, and logical thinking was wrong again.What have we though was one way for the last 30 years, how much of it has changed? Alcohol can be good for you, cigerettes are bad for you, dinosaurs with feathers, etc.All this what you said:

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Look, we do know that

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1) humans are social animals

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and

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2) that we fear, above all else, the unknown (especially what happens after death)

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and

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3) that large groups of them, self-perpetuated over many generations can be convinced of the truth of something despite a lack of verifiable evidence

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and

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4) many of us are quite willing to believe a comforting falsehood or fabricated story about that which frightens us than remain unsure or fearful about it.

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Is just a drop in the hat. It isn't reason enough to believe or not believe in anything.

Thanks sister.

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I just wish God would show you a glimpse of heaven, so you wouldn't have to fear death.

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What makes you think I fear death?

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No, I don't.

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Yes, you do greatly underestimate the power of bias and logical fallacies.That is the nature of bias and logic errors; you don't know that you are using them. It is much, much more natural to use them than to not, or to catch yourself using them. That's why the entire scientific method and peer-review system is designed to be a powerful, sophisticated, illogic and bias detection system.Regular, everyday human "reasoning" is fraught with bias; it has to be otherwise we couldn't get through the day.You DON'T think skeptically nor scientifically about your religious experiences, rat, that much is clear.

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What happened, happened. I saw it with my own eyes, and experienced it, and there was no logical explanantion for it. I am open to one if you could come up with one.

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What happened, and what you interpreted and perceived about what happened are two different things, rat.You experienced the situations through the misty cloud of emotion and personal bias. There was nothing that anyone could even remotely call "objective" in your recording of the event.The fact that you think you are somehow immune from your biases just shows how deeply devoted you are to keeping hold of them.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-06-2005 03:32 PM

worth a try.Was I even close?

Isn't that what you said? We all fear death, and you don't expect me to expect you to ignore that fact? Then why did we think no 2 finger prints are the same for so long?Maybe its the other way around. It's not we believe in fairy tales to satisfy our fears of reality. It's we believe in reality to satisfy our fears of the unkown and spiritual. How so? It was unexplanable, regardless of what I think it was. We can examine it if you like. Go ahead, ask me a million questions about it. It either was God, or it wasn't. I remain open to an explanantion, what's not scientific about that? For now my theory is that it was God. You can't prove a theory right? What am I doing wrong? Emotion had nothing to do with the unexplanable. You obviously didn't read the story right, or gather the facts correctly. go back and read, and lets make a list of the facts, and why they can't be explained.You don't think because I was laughing, that I think there is a God do you? That's kind of shallow isn't it? Thats not a fact, you just made that up, because if you go back and read, you will find out, that I am asking for an explanantion. Even a hypothesis will do, or a theory as to what happened.Our ability to determine things is based on how we gather facts, and from the looks of it, your not doing a good job. Maybe your perception isn't what it should be, and you are clouded with preconcieved notions of God's existance. The devil is a liar, and there are layers of deception in our minds Schraf. You will have to start uncovering those to get to the truth.I am not immune from my own biases. I have figured that out already about myself many years ago. Everything you think to be right can in fact be wrong, I don't have a problem with that. It's called a learning process. Some people are very "set in their ways" while I strive to be as open minded as possible. Of course I realize this ability is limited to my own mind, but hey, at least I try.*edit*
Hey, I don't want to hijack this thread with my experience, so if you want, I will type up the full stroy, and start a new topic, and let everyone have a go at it. I don't want to hide what I went through in fear of me being wrong, instead I want just the opposite.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 11-06-2005 06:06 PM

Why are you assuming someone 'fears' death if they don't believe in God? Why should one 'Fear' death at all?

You see. That right there is called slothful induction. It's a fallacy where you ignore the fact that the majority of the evidence allows you to infer that science works.It's like saying, " the other team wins nearly every time, but I'm telling you - they're not the best because they lost one game to us "The fact is that the fingerprint-case (if your meme is true), is just one-case scenario, and doesn't negate the true inductive inference that infact science works the majority of the time.Even a mistake in theory is likely the human's fault, not science's.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-07-2005 08:02 AM

Wiz...meet me in chat if you get this message within five minutes

January. In fairness to Riverrat, he did suggest that his abilities don't incorporate such information. So to be fair, this doesn't actually negate what he is saying. You see how honest I am?

I didn't assume that. I don't fear death, I wonder about it.
I fear dying young, because I want to take care of my family, I fear what will happen to them.
I was going by what schraf said. About knowns and unknowns.