I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?

snap....double post This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 12:49 PM

Your link (a handy one to have in favorites!) describes NT use of the word 'righteous' as follows: So when the NT says a man is righteous it can mean any of the above and we would need the context to tell us which one. We see in various places that someone was considered "righteous in Gods sight". Clearly, when it comes to being righteous, it is being righteous in his sight that counts..however that comes aboutTwo things spring to mind:As far as I am aware, nowhere in the NT do we see that man is considered righteous in Gods sight because he follows or as a consequence of him following the law. We do see that someone is seen as righteous in Gods sight and that they follow Gods laws. Which is a different thingNone of the above uses for the word indicate 'trying'. ie: you are not righteous in any of the contexts in which the word is used because you try to be lawful. Only that you are law abidingThis message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 12:38 PM

Okay, so she is in the same boat as the elder. Sometimes doing as Jesus said, sometimes not. Both able to repent and be forgiven their sin. Obviously only a believer can do that. A person who doesn't believe in God won't think they are sinning so won't ask forgivenessSo, this believer asks for forgiveness and is forgiven. If she doesn't ask forgiveness then she cannot recieve it presumably. So it is not her following the law which achieves salvation but being forgiven when she doesn't. The elder didn't try. He let fear stand in the way. What if it had been selfisheness. Could that be equally forgiven. Or plain pre-occupation with the football match. Or any other of the myriad of reasons a person may not love their neighbour?Assuming all motivations could be forgiven and all sins thus can be forgiven (except grieving the Holy Spirit) then all one has to ensure is that one remembers to repent and ask for forgiveness.But what if we forget one? If throughout the whole course of our lives a sin slips the net. Summing up we may say that certain people...- believe in God and believe that he forgives our sin if they ask him
- (from the above), recognize that sin is sin and they need them forgiven by God
- follow the commands on occasion
- don't follow the commands on occasion
- believe that sins will be forgiven on all the occasions they ask
- believe that sin's won't be forgiven if they don'tWhat do you reckon happens in the case that sins are forgotten or when a person comes to believe after years and years of sin and there is no way to remember them all so that they can be forgiven?

And a little later in your post you add a conclusion drawn from later in 1 John - but miss an important piece at verse 9 I included verse 9 in case anyone thought you were implying that those who do right are, on account of it, made or seen as righteous by God. On the contrary, it seems that somehow or other a person is born of God (and we might remember Jesus words to Nicodemus "unless a man is born again (or of the spirit) he will not see..."). And for that reason, being born of God, a man CANNOT sin (as far as God is concerned). Which ties in nicely with Paul in Romans 3:20. "But now a righteousness from God is revealed....for all who believe (which supplies us with a mechanism of receiving Gods righteousness)"God supplies the righteousness - not man by his works. And when Paul talks of sin in the believer, he doesn't talk of it as the believer sinning but sin in a particular part of the believer "let not sin reign in you mortal flesh" he exhorts. It seems that although a person born of God cannot sin, sin can occur. And Paul tells us where that is: not in the eternal part of them (spirit) but in the mortal part. It seems this is not the case. But if it were the criteria there would exist a massive problem. Nobody can practice what you preach. Everyone trips over the law if it is under law they are. I don't follow the law all the time, neither do you. But a believer is not under law anymore so cannot sin according to it. If you are under law then you can sin according to it

Any biblical basis for the ideas in your post Jar? Especially the whole idea of trying. I never heard of a gift that cost the person recieving it anything. "But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" I have never heard of a gift that the recipient had to pay for. I never implied Christianity was a get out of Hell free card. It cost alright. It cost God. God bought the gift and gives it to all who would believe...

This thread is less about me showing and more about you showing "try" But if you insist .The idea that any part of the law is minor is a purely human idea. As far as God is concerned all sin is deadly. Look at the consequences of eating one apple...To call them mistakes is disingenuous. They aren't mistakes - they are sin. And the idea that people don't sin in word, thought and deed numerous times a day...well I'll leave that to the individual to decide "All have sinned and fallen short" The purpose of this thread is to show 'trying' biblically. The universality of sin is shown by this verse. "The wages of sin is death" shows in no uncertain terms how serious sin is. That's any sin - (until shown "sin above a certain (usually self-determined) level or of a certain type") means death. It is very human to think trying would be the basis of salvation -but we're not here for mans ideas. We're here to see what God says.By the way, Philipians 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body. ..."'Our' refers to believers in context. People who are "in Christ", people for whom "there is now no condemnation" etc. Citizenship is decided here on earth. God doesn't have instincts. He knows everything already. I trust his word....This message has been edited by iano, 08-Nov-2005 05:16 PM

This, if I remember correctly, is going to lead to a humanlogic statement. But this thread is about biblical basis, Gods revelation, how God says he does it.Whilst your logic statement will be, logical - it just isn't biblical.

Which reminds me of something. Is the person who does right made righteous because of what he doesORIs the right things a person does a result of the fact he is righteous.IOW: is doing right a cause or a consequence. And how do we tell from the bald verse?

No. God is not stupid.

Nope. (I knew what vainglorious from the last time I had to look it up when you asked me this question). "Knowledge and understanding through.... repetition"

Yes. The main problem is that it isn't biblical. It's a philosophy. Grounded on a start presumption that 'trying' matters for salvation.I'm off for now. Dinner and bible study beckons. Romans again tonight See ya later dude

I'm ready when you are. But like the thread says Jar, it's a biblical case for trying that is the area of concern. That will involve verses and passages looked at in context, which knit the various elements together. An argument you presented before IIRC ran along the lines:- man can't keep all the law all the time
- God is reasonable - thus she couldn't expect us to keep the law
- thus man doesn't have to keep the law the best he can do is try
- if you try, she knows the heart and will forgive...remains a philosophical one if the case cannot be made biblically.

Paul was indeed trying to please God. He, like any Christian is in a position to be able to please God. Unlike a non-Christian... Sounds very works orientated doesn't it? If I "chose" to set my mind then. However.... So, if Christ is in you, you will have the Spirit. And if you have the Spirit you are not in the flesh. And vice versa. And if vice versa, ie: you are not a Christian, you CANNOT please God. Which, although possibly coming as a surprise, kind of fits with "all your righteousness are as filthy rags"Paul can please God and is indeed trying to please God and he looks forward to reward. Reward as you say isn't gift, it is a payment for works done. But Paul doesn't mention reward as being salvation (which would as you say, conflict with him saying it is the gift of God).Jesus talked about "greatest" and "least" in the kingdom of heaven. Something is going to decide greatest and least in heaven. And we know a Christians will be judged according to their works. But just not in terms of salvation. It is in terms of heavenly reward. But you'd have to be in heaven to find out what the reward will be. For the non-Christian there is no reward because nothing they have done can have pleased God. As far a his award, a crown of righteousness, it is fairly straightforward. Christians are called sons of God and heirs. The word heir is used because an heir will be crowned. Paul has finished the tasks God set him, his has carried his cross, his time is up. He is summing up his life in Christ. It is time for him, as heir, to be crowned. Only heirs are crowned. The question is, how does one become an heir?"To those who believed on his name He gave the right to be called children of God" Only children of a King can possibly be heirs. Either "begotten" children (Christ) or "adopted" children (Christians). An heir looking back at a life in preparation for his Coronation only to then look forward to the Coronation itself is not looking at his Coronation being a result of his preparation works. He is an heir - his Coronation results from that and that alone.That is why the word heir and son is used. And heirdom and sonship are not arrived at by works. It is always belief, it is always faith.

Its a bit of a subject but I derive it as follows.Only those who are in the spirit can please God
Only those who have the spirit are in the Spirit
Only those who are in Christ have the Spirit
Only saints can be described as being in Christ
Only saints are ChristiansThis list isn't exhaustive, you might find for example that a person isn't referred to as a saint but is referred to as a believer. Then we get into a sub-category that only believers can are ever called saints. Etetera.It's kind of a multi-stranded thing: no matter which strand you pull you will find that it always leads back to some or other feature of the gospel. No exceptions.Could be a long night

I think it is very relevant indeed. I have been stating that the only way a person can be made righteous in Gods sight is if they have their righteousness given to them by God. And if they do then good works (pleasing to God that is) follow as a matter of course (although not in the sense that everything such a person does will be right and pleasing to God) I pointed out to you that you only have to go to verse 9, which says "whoever is born of God...cannot commit sin". It is being born of God that puts a stop to sin here. Thus, a flat contradiction only two verses on - it would appear. Which is it: you trying to do it or God ensuring you don't do it.Then we have Paul exhorting people who have been born of God, declared righteous etc, exhorting them "not to let sin reign in them" Conflict there too. They are righteous and they sin. Paul provides explaination for the apparent contradiction. He talks of a location of sin in the born-of-God man. A distinct place. Not in the spirit but in the flesh. There is a separation of some sort between the eternal person (who is declared righteous in Gods sight) and their mortal flesh (in which sin resides). Something has happened to man in relation to sin. A separation in terms of sins legal hold on a man unto death has been broken.Legal. ForensicSee even the terms used of people who have had this righteousness imputed to them: citizens of heaven, sons, heirs, brothers. All legal positional terms. A citizen, son or heir may be a bad heir or a good one. He may be the son who stays at home or a prodigal one. But once a citizen, a son, an heir then (as these words cry out to us) a postional move has taken place. Natural things that happen citizens/sons/heirs will occur. Gods declaration of our being righteous is a forensic, legal act.And 1 John 3:7 isn't enough to change that on its own You preach John. And John says in verse 9 that a person who is a child of God cannot sin. Are you trying to tell me that you never, ever sin Truthlover. I don't mean tryin' now. I mean, you cannot sin. Never ever. Not an angry word, not a shred of selfishness, no deceit, no lust, always turning the other cheek.In your dreams Lest I've confused anyone. 'My' gospel in a nutshell:Everyone is born a sinner. Because they are born this way they sin. Cause/consequence. Its not Gods fault. Sin will result in our death and Gods wrath. Anyone who realises their position before a holy God and holds up their hand, who realises their sin is their own and that they need a saviour, Jesus, will be saved. The way God saves is by killing off the most important bit of them, the eternal bit. Just a piece of them. He puts that bit to death. Then raises it to life again (he's able to do such things). The bit that comes to life is born again, born of God, born of Spirit, declared righteous in his sight, called a child, a son, a brother, a citizen of heaven etc. This bit is put in Christ. This bit, which used to be under law and all its grip on him through his sin, is freed from the law. The law and its grip no longer applies. Following the law couldn't provide salvation, it could only point the way to salvation.God doesn't kill off the flesh. The mortal bit. Sin is still around. It resides not in the resurrected bit but in the bit God hasn't touched. But God sends his Spirit. The Spirit comes to reside inside the new person. The Spirit does battle, with us, against sin in the mortal flesh. We slip and fail, we stumble, we backslide. We don't fall. In that we sin in this 'other' manner we can be forgiven as we go. And we are always forgiven: "for he is patient and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from every unrighteousness" No conditions for those that are in Christ. "No condemnation for those in Christ" And rather than rejoice in the fact that they can sin all they like and not lose salvation, such a person will have a different view on sin. They are now afterall, children of God. It tends to change ones view. And the Holy Spirit, being inside, reminds us when we forget.The battle with sin goes on until sin does what sin must do. It kills our mortal flesh. Death. Then heaven. Sure thing.Our righteousness comes from God. We get it purely because we believe in him. Gods righteousness is not like works-based righteousness. It is not filthy rags. Paul was so confident in the power and certainty of God-given righteousness (as opposed to self-earned) that he was moved to say:"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus."Amen.