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Author Topic:   YEC approaches to empirical investigation
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 286 of 303 (261975)
11-21-2005 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by nwr
11-21-2005 11:44 AM


Re: why the YEC postion is bankrupt.
In debates, it is usually the premises that are being questionned and being debated.

Perhaps this is formally true. In other words we are not debating the Flood but the validity of God's word over and over and over again. So there is no debate here about evolution or the Flood or anything really except the validity of God's word, and that's fundamentally not open to debate for a YEC, though of course we will do what we can to argue for it as well. Once again, if God said it, the God who made it all, there is no possible debate along the lines EvC conceives of it. God trumps science, and science is idolatry if it dares to contradict God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by nwr, posted 11-21-2005 11:44 AM nwr has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 303 (261976)
11-21-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by crashfrog
11-21-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
Follow the logic. IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2005 12:54 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2005 1:14 PM Faith has responded
 Message 294 by Brian, posted 11-21-2005 1:25 PM Faith has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 288 of 303 (261977)
11-21-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
11-21-2005 12:35 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
Faith writes:

everybody just wants to assert their own pet assumption and ignore the topic here which is about how the YEC premise always gets overridden by the EvC premises.

But Faith....you and your assumptions are also being posted at EvC so you too are part of the "EvC premise." Sheeeesh!

As a believer, I DO have some deep issues that are crucial to my faith. YEC premises are not one of them. Just out of curiousity, why do YOU feel so passionate about defending and asserting them?

Faith writes:

Follow the logic. IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option.

OK...lets follow the logic. The King and Creator of this vast universe is not going to limit His spoken wisdom to one literal book on one dustspeck of a planet. Give God SOME credit!

This message has been edited by Phat, 11-21-2005 11:06 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 12:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:25 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 303 (261980)
11-21-2005 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by iano
11-21-2005 12:58 PM


Re: why the YEC postion is bankrupt.
I don't know if I'm coming back Ian. Just in a mood to get my two cents in today. Must be bored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by iano, posted 11-21-2005 12:58 PM iano has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 303 (261983)
11-21-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
11-21-2005 1:03 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option.

Defend the premise. Why should I believe that God has spoken on a subject?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:18 PM crashfrog has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 303 (261984)
11-21-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by PaulK
11-21-2005 12:50 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
By which you mean that since you are not prepared to argue for your religious preuppositions you demand that they should simply be accepted.

I've argued for them a lot, so you are as usual wrong. The point that everyone keeps missing is that SCIENCE is pitted against CREATION at this site, SCIENCE calls the shots, it is the assumptions of current SCIENCE that are taken for granted, and I am simply coming along and saying, no, sorry, the WORD OF GOD TRUMPS SCIENCE. The evolutionist premise makes this an either/or and assert always that the presuppositions of science are valid, and I'm answering, uh uh, the presupposition of God's word ought to be given the preeminence that you all give to your idea that science is god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2005 12:50 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 303 (261985)
11-21-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by crashfrog
11-21-2005 1:14 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
Defend the premise. Why should I believe that God has spoken on a subject?

I've defended it many times before. In the present context I am asserting it as a presupposition and logically it follows that IF God has spoken your obligation is to listen and obey. Nobody in their right mind can disagree with that.

This message has been edited by Faith, 11-21-2005 01:18 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2005 1:14 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2005 1:23 PM Faith has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 303 (261987)
11-21-2005 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
11-21-2005 1:18 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
In the present context I am asserting it as a presupposition

You don't get to, in any context. In general, because no unchallengeable premises are allowed here, and specifically in your case because you've never succcesfully defended it. You've been proven wrong about it in every thread I've ever read.

So defend the premise. I grant you that, if your premise is correct - that indeed, the account in Genesis is intended by God to be an accurate, divinely-dictated account of what actually happened - then indeed, no disagreement with it could be coherent. That argument is valid.

But there's no reason to accept your premise, so there's no reason to accept that your argument is actually true. With an untrue premise, your argument is valid but not true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:44 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 294 of 303 (261988)
11-21-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
11-21-2005 1:03 PM


IF God was to speak...
it wouldn't be recorded in a book as ludicrous as the Bible.

If God was to have His/Her/Its recorded in a book, then that book wouldn't contradict every other discipline known to man.

The Bible is one very good reason for NOT believing in the Judeo-Christian God.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:27 PM Brian has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 295 of 303 (261989)
11-21-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Thugpreacha
11-21-2005 1:03 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
As a believer, I DO have some deep issues that are crucial to my faith. YEC premises are not one of them. Just out of curiousity, why do YOU feel so passionate about defending and asserting them?

Because I'm not passionate about anything I myself think or believe, but about what God Himself said.

Faith writes:
Follow the logic. IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option.

OK...lets follow the logic. The King and Creator of this vast universe is not going to limit His spoken wisdom to one literal book on one dustspeck of a planet. Give God SOME credit!

I'm sorry Phat but you are wrong. It's not that He has LIMITED Himself to the Book, as He most certainly has spoken in His creation as well, but His creation will not and does not contradict His spoken word, but you suggest He is contradicting Himself if you deny what His written word says on the basis of some other idea you think you detect from His universe. God is indeed vast, the God who made the universe and who wrote this Book for our edification. You cannot pit the one against the other but that is what you are doing. Without the Book you will never understand His nature, and He didn't just flap His gums to have people come along and tell Him He didn't say what He said. It's in black and white.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-21-2005 1:03 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 303 (261990)
11-21-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
11-21-2005 11:52 AM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
Faith writes me:

quote:
The premise being discussed is that it occurred because God said it did, and that whatever can be known about it from the Bible must be taken into account.

That's the crux of the issue right there. Nothing can be known if the source is only a book. The book can be studied in scientific ways (see higher criticism), but most of the stories and episodes within it can't. Similarly, Shakespeare's Hamlet can be studied in scientific ways (as it has been extensively; the story of the play's text presents a fascinating journey into the history of the printed word, if you should ever care to look it up), but there's no way one could, for instance, ever prove or disprove whether the ghost of King Hamlet really visited Elsinore on that fateful night. Appeals to ghosts are no different in this respect from appeals to god.

So while we can learn a lot about human history from the bible and about the history of printing from Hamlet, the bible is no more help in scientifically studying god than is Hamlet in scientfically studying ghosts. No matter how many written words you can find that talk about god or ghosts, both belong to the supernatural and thus neither can be scientifically studied.

You and other YECs choose to look to the bible to assist you in studying god. That's fine, but don't pretend that you're engaging in science. Science is based on what can be observed directly, not on what can be observed in a book.


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 11:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:29 PM berberry has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 297 of 303 (261992)
11-21-2005 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Brian
11-21-2005 1:25 PM


Re: IF God was to speak...
it wouldn't be recorded in a book as ludicrous as the Bible.
If God was to have His/Her/Its recorded in a book, then that book wouldn't contradict every other discipline known to man.

Sorry but of course it's the other way around. The disciplines contradict God. He'll make it clear to you some day.

The Bible is one very good reason for NOT believing in the Judeo-Christian God.

Sure, Brian, you are quite free to believe that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Brian, posted 11-21-2005 1:25 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Brian, posted 11-21-2005 1:33 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 298 of 303 (261993)
11-21-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by berberry
11-21-2005 1:26 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
Silly silly silly. You just insist on your own presuppositions here as usual.

You may regard it as "only a book," sure, but it is in fact God's own revelation to humanity you are dismissing so lightly.

Science is the truth about the physical world. God made the physical world. God wrote the Bible. TRUE science most certainly is compatible with the Bible.

P.S. All the higher criticism is is man profaning God's word.

This message has been edited by Faith, 11-21-2005 01:31 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by berberry, posted 11-21-2005 1:26 PM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by berberry, posted 11-21-2005 1:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 299 of 303 (261995)
11-21-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
11-21-2005 1:27 PM


Re: IF God was to speak...
Sorry but of course it's the other way around. The disciplines contradict God. He'll make it clear to you some day.

That's exactly the same as what I said :P


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:43 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 303 (261998)
11-21-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
11-21-2005 1:29 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
I must extend a hearty thank you to you, Faith, you are demonstrating my point most admirably. Every assertion you make in this post is an appeal to the supernatural.

quote:
You may regard it as "only a book," sure, but it is in fact God's own revelation to humanity you are dismissing so lightly.

Give me some evidence! Simply saying that the bible is God's revelation isn't enough for science. You must present evidence. And remember, evidence is not just words printed on a page. If a printed page constitutes evidence, I can prove that King Hamlet's ghost existed.

quote:
God made the physical world. God wrote the Bible.

Evidence, Faith, evidence!


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

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