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Author | Topic: YEC approaches to empirical investigation | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In debates, it is usually the premises that are being questionned and being debated. Perhaps this is formally true. In other words we are not debating the Flood but the validity of God's word over and over and over again. So there is no debate here about evolution or the Flood or anything really except the validity of God's word, and that's fundamentally not open to debate for a YEC, though of course we will do what we can to argue for it as well. Once again, if God said it, the God who made it all, there is no possible debate along the lines EvC conceives of it. God trumps science, and science is idolatry if it dares to contradict God.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Follow the logic. IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: But Faith....you and your assumptions are also being posted at EvC so you too are part of the "EvC premise." Sheeeesh! everybody just wants to assert their own pet assumption and ignore the topic here which is about how the YEC premise always gets overridden by the EvC premises. As a believer, I DO have some deep issues that are crucial to my faith. YEC premises are not one of them. Just out of curiousity, why do YOU feel so passionate about defending and asserting them?
Faith writes: OK...lets follow the logic. The King and Creator of this vast universe is not going to limit His spoken wisdom to one literal book on one dustspeck of a planet. Give God SOME credit! Follow the logic. IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option. This message has been edited by Phat, 11-21-2005 11:06 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know if I'm coming back Ian. Just in a mood to get my two cents in today. Must be bored.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option. Defend the premise. Why should I believe that God has spoken on a subject?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
By which you mean that since you are not prepared to argue for your religious preuppositions you demand that they should simply be accepted. I've argued for them a lot, so you are as usual wrong. The point that everyone keeps missing is that SCIENCE is pitted against CREATION at this site, SCIENCE calls the shots, it is the assumptions of current SCIENCE that are taken for granted, and I am simply coming along and saying, no, sorry, the WORD OF GOD TRUMPS SCIENCE. The evolutionist premise makes this an either/or and assert always that the presuppositions of science are valid, and I'm answering, uh uh, the presupposition of God's word ought to be given the preeminence that you all give to your idea that science is god.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Defend the premise. Why should I believe that God has spoken on a subject? I've defended it many times before. In the present context I am asserting it as a presupposition and logically it follows that IF God has spoken your obligation is to listen and obey. Nobody in their right mind can disagree with that. This message has been edited by Faith, 11-21-2005 01:18 PM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
In the present context I am asserting it as a presupposition You don't get to, in any context. In general, because no unchallengeable premises are allowed here, and specifically in your case because you've never succcesfully defended it. You've been proven wrong about it in every thread I've ever read. So defend the premise. I grant you that, if your premise is correct - that indeed, the account in Genesis is intended by God to be an accurate, divinely-dictated account of what actually happened - then indeed, no disagreement with it could be coherent. That argument is valid. But there's no reason to accept your premise, so there's no reason to accept that your argument is actually true. With an untrue premise, your argument is valid but not true.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
it wouldn't be recorded in a book as ludicrous as the Bible.
If God was to have His/Her/Its recorded in a book, then that book wouldn't contradict every other discipline known to man. The Bible is one very good reason for NOT believing in the Judeo-Christian God. Brian.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As a believer, I DO have some deep issues that are crucial to my faith. YEC premises are not one of them. Just out of curiousity, why do YOU feel so passionate about defending and asserting them? Because I'm not passionate about anything I myself think or believe, but about what God Himself said.
Faith writes: Follow the logic. IF God has spoken on a subject, not accepting what God has said is not an option. OK...lets follow the logic. The King and Creator of this vast universe is not going to limit His spoken wisdom to one literal book on one dustspeck of a planet. Give God SOME credit! I'm sorry Phat but you are wrong. It's not that He has LIMITED Himself to the Book, as He most certainly has spoken in His creation as well, but His creation will not and does not contradict His spoken word, but you suggest He is contradicting Himself if you deny what His written word says on the basis of some other idea you think you detect from His universe. God is indeed vast, the God who made the universe and who wrote this Book for our edification. You cannot pit the one against the other but that is what you are doing. Without the Book you will never understand His nature, and He didn't just flap His gums to have people come along and tell Him He didn't say what He said. It's in black and white.
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berberry Inactive Member |
Faith writes me:
quote: That's the crux of the issue right there. Nothing can be known if the source is only a book. The book can be studied in scientific ways (see higher criticism), but most of the stories and episodes within it can't. Similarly, Shakespeare's Hamlet can be studied in scientific ways (as it has been extensively; the story of the play's text presents a fascinating journey into the history of the printed word, if you should ever care to look it up), but there's no way one could, for instance, ever prove or disprove whether the ghost of King Hamlet really visited Elsinore on that fateful night. Appeals to ghosts are no different in this respect from appeals to god. So while we can learn a lot about human history from the bible and about the history of printing from Hamlet, the bible is no more help in scientifically studying god than is Hamlet in scientfically studying ghosts. No matter how many written words you can find that talk about god or ghosts, both belong to the supernatural and thus neither can be scientifically studied. You and other YECs choose to look to the bible to assist you in studying god. That's fine, but don't pretend that you're engaging in science. Science is based on what can be observed directly, not on what can be observed in a book. "We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss., Sept. 20, 2005.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
it wouldn't be recorded in a book as ludicrous as the Bible. If God was to have His/Her/Its recorded in a book, then that book wouldn't contradict every other discipline known to man. Sorry but of course it's the other way around. The disciplines contradict God. He'll make it clear to you some day.
The Bible is one very good reason for NOT believing in the Judeo-Christian God. Sure, Brian, you are quite free to believe that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Silly silly silly. You just insist on your own presuppositions here as usual.
You may regard it as "only a book," sure, but it is in fact God's own revelation to humanity you are dismissing so lightly. Science is the truth about the physical world. God made the physical world. God wrote the Bible. TRUE science most certainly is compatible with the Bible. P.S. All the higher criticism is is man profaning God's word. This message has been edited by Faith, 11-21-2005 01:31 PM
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Sorry but of course it's the other way around. The disciplines contradict God. He'll make it clear to you some day. That's exactly the same as what I said
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berberry Inactive Member |
I must extend a hearty thank you to you, Faith, you are demonstrating my point most admirably. Every assertion you make in this post is an appeal to the supernatural.
quote: Give me some evidence! Simply saying that the bible is God's revelation isn't enough for science. You must present evidence. And remember, evidence is not just words printed on a page. If a printed page constitutes evidence, I can prove that King Hamlet's ghost existed.
quote: Evidence, Faith, evidence! "We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss., Sept. 20, 2005.
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