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Author | Topic: Nature and the fall of man | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's a very perceptive analysis I'd say. Of course from my point of view it's just a way to get rid of the 2000-year-old religion without facing up to that motive.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:IMO, what you are presenting is not the same as what jar is presenting. Cancer is cellular. Something within our own body that has run amuck.
Cancer develops when cells in one part of the body begin to grow out of control. Normal body cells grow, divide, and die in a systematic way. During the early years of a person’s life, normal cells divide more rapidly until the person becomes an adult. After that, cells in most parts of the body divide only to replace worn out or dying cells and to repair injuries. In the case of cancer cells, the genetic program that regulates their growth cycle is interrupted, causing the cells to become immortal and constantly divide. Cancer cell growth never stops, and it results in the formation of a tumor mass. There are studies at the cellular level using natural nutrients to turn on the cellular program to stop the cancerous cells or have them commit suicide (apoptosis). Even outside influences that may cause cancer are usually manmade and not from nature, IMO.
quote:Whether you like to hear it or not, the birth defect is bad for the baby, but good for the species. In the natural course of things, those born with severe defects probably would not live and therefore not procreate. So the genetics of those parents with a defective gene or gene combination would not continue. It's just the way the system works. Now there are also manmade reasons for birth defects. I assume you would not attribute these to God or his system. Hopefully mankind learns from his own mistakes. There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But I did not say it's all good. I said GOD is good.
So if I get cancer, that's bad for me but good for the cancer, which after all, has a right to live too. No, the cancer does not have a right to live. A cancerous growth is not a separate entity.
If a baby is born with a severe birth defect, that's bad for the baby, but good for . . . good for. . . That's very definitely bad for the baby. I don't think that's good for anyone. BUT... both the examples you gave were natural event, simply examples of what does happen. And this is one of the wonderful changes as mankind abandoned the concept Of the Fall. As long as we looked on things like you have mentioned as Acts of GOD, or the result of the Fall, or God's will, there was little we could do about it. With the knowledge we have gained over the mellenia, knowledge of Evolution and Genetics, we are beginning to understand how to treat cancers and birth defects. We are learning that such things are natural. It is only through the understanding that mankind is not some fallen creature that we can begin to understand our place in this system. And fortunately, GOD has given us the ability to think, and the knowledge that there is right, and wrong, and the capability to work to make life better. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
What you and Purpledawn seem to be suggesting it that it's the best of all possible worlds, except of course for bad things done by people.
A plague sweeps across Europe and kills untold numbers who suffer and die. That was bad for the people, of course, but good for the plague bacteria (not so good for the rats either). God loves all His little creatures. If we need to make a few hundred thousand humans die for the sake of My beloved bacteria, then so be it. That's the system! Only it's not quite the best of all possible worlds because we are going to make it better. God did the best he could with what He had, but it took him a few billion years to evolve this creature called Man, who had Reason, and then it took a few hundred thousand more years for Man to get to the point where he could start improving this mess that God had on his hands. Thank goodness we got over that superstitution about the Fall. God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What you and Purpledawn seem to be suggesting it that it's the best of all possible worlds, except of course for bad things done by people. I of course cannot speak for PurpleDawn, but that is certainly not what I'm saying. The rest of your post is not at all what I say either. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You said the system He set up is perfect. So it's the best of all possible worlds. You can't get better than perfect.
I happen to believe in a Good GOD, one that loves everything equally. The system he set up is perfect
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It has nothing to do with being good for the bacteria. It is good for the overall balance. The system has checks and balances. When a deer population is too large for their area and their isn't enough food, the deer start to get sick and die. The illness brings the population back to a reasonable level. The survivors have plenty of food. IMO, some of the diseases suffered by civilized man is due to overpopulation. Humans need to function within the system just like the rest of creation. They are subject to the checks and balances just like the rest of creation. Oddly enough mankind keeps messing up the system not fixing it, mainly because he can't see the big picture, and because we think it was made for us to do with as we please, IMO. The Bible is geared around humans, not God's system. The Bible doesn't support a change in the system because of one man's decision and doesn't support that man is supposed to fix anything except himself. There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The system has checks and balances. When a deer population is too large for their area and their isn't enough food, the deer start to get sick and die. The situation in Europe and Asia in the 14th century was a little different. They died from the plague, not starvation. And anyway, there weren't that many people back then to begin with. After it was over with, the situation was no different except that there were a lot fewer people. That also means fewer farmers.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I said that the system is perfect. The system is designed to assure that life evolves, changes to meet changing conditions. That in no way says that the products of the system are the best of all possible worlds.
What is says is that it is the world. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I didn't say the deer died of starvation. quote:Supposedly the group to die first numbered in the tens of thousands. Sounds like a lot of people to me. The rats were probably the overpopulated group. Unfortunately the crowded overpopulated, unsanitary living habits of mankind made them victims of the disease also, because the rats headed there for food. Trade routes made it possible for the disease to spread. Mankind tends to create many of their own problems. There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Robinrohan, I wish I had time to add to the discussion and comment in depth, but you are very succinct and on target.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I said that the system is perfect. The system is designed to assure that life evolves, changes to meet changing conditions. That in no way says that the products of the system are the best of all possible worlds. Evolution doeesn't seem to be a perfect system to me. It looks like a hit and miss affair. Just to take a tiny example, this system produces vestigial structures that do nothing but take up space and sometimes are harmful. These are leftovers from the evolutionary past. There are cave animals that have eyes that don't work anymore. I suppose one might say they perform a cosmetic function (I would find a fish without eyes rather spooky), but that would be a humancentric view since the fish can't see each other and so don't care about the cosmetics. Apart from this, I don't see how one can separate our judgment of a system from its products. The system exists for its products. Let's say I had this system for making medicines. I hired some workers and set up an assembly line and was boasting about how perfect my system was. I could produce medicines right and left, all different varities, and I could change and produce new and different medicines. The only problem was the quality of the medicines themselves. Some worked rather well, while others did nothing to the patient one way or the other. Others killed the patients, or maimed them for life, and still others made them go crazy and start killing and eating other people. My system was perfect in one sense: it produced many different medicines.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is there a question in there? If so I couldn't find it.
Evolution doeesn't seem to be a perfect system to me. Okay. I believe that is your viewpoint. Fine. But I do see it as a perfect system. It has allowed life to continue even through some very major changes. It allows life to evolve and change as conditions change. It's been working now for many billions of years. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Is there a question in there? If so I couldn't find it. Why should I ask you a question? I'm arguing a point.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Mankind tends to create many of their own problems. Mankind didn't create the plague. You seem to be introducing some odd environmental point. If only we treated the natural system better, it would treat us better. You may very well be right about that, but it doesn't seem to fit this topic. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-27-2005 02:29 PM
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