Nature and the fall of man

And how do you know what 'Pre Fall' is like? A badly translated story modified by the ancient hebrews , who got many of the concept from the sumaritans?

You are making some false assumptions about evolution. Evolution is not a philosphy, it does not make value judgements, it just is what developed based on the physical laws of the universe.It is 'perfect' in that it gets the job done. The emotions of LOVE, of nuture, of altruism are explainable via the mechanism of evolution.If you feel that makes life 'meaningless', why would that be any more meaninless than being manipulated by an omnisiciet, omnipotent supernatural being whose motivations are unknown and unknowable?

Just a point. The 'Fall' is not a Jewish concept.

It is more in the line that God has provided the opportunity for man to be bad, and to make bad choices.. and therefore, by being good, and making good choices they can lead a sanctfied life and become closer to God.

You are showing the contradiction that was best put in the words of Epicurus, in about 300 b.c.

quote:

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? When why call him God?"

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--Epicurus (341 - 270 BC)

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No, that is an eisegesis into Genesis. It is not inherent in Genesis at all. If it was, why didn't 3600 years of Jewish people notice it?It seems to have been an introduction by the either the Hellenised Jews, or the early Christians. (see the 'Wisdom of Solomon'), and got picked up and expanded by Paul and Saint Augustus.But, the mainstream Judiasm did pick up that concept.This message has been edited by ramoss, 12-29-2005 05:40 PM

Oh.
Show me a Jewish source that specifically shows that the Jewish religion belives in 'original sin'.NOt a 'messanic' jewish source. Not a source evangalising ot the jewish faith.. but a Jewish source.You made a claim about Jewish belief, NOw back it up.

From http://www.convert.org/differ.htm

quote:

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FREE WILL AND ORIGINAL SIN

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Judaism does not accept the notion of original sin, the idea that people are bad from birth and cannot remove sin by themselves but need an act of grace provided by the sacrificial death of Jesus as atonement for all of humanity's sins. For Christians, there are no other forms of salvation other than through Jesus.

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In contrast, the Jewish view is that humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad. They have both a good and a bad inclination in them, but they have the free moral will to choose the good and this free moral will can be more powerful than the evil inclination. Indeed, Jewish ethics requires the idea that humans decide for themselves how to act. This is so because temptation, and with it the possibility of sin, allows people to choose good and thus have moral merit. The Jewish view is not that humans are helpless in the face of moral error.

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Also SeeFrom http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq123.html
Judaism's Rejection of Original Sin(removed quotes to copyrighted material)and just put link there instead)This message has been edited by ramoss, 12-29-2005 06:05 PM

What you fail to realise that "original sin" is not a Jewish concept.Period.

That is not original sin..That is you trying to project a concept that doesn't fit on another concept. What part of "Jews do not believe in Original Sin" in that very same article don't you understand.Do you know what 'Sin' is in the Jewish religion? What is the literal translatoin of 'sin'?

I quoted from 3 different Jewish sources. I quoted from very repected Rabbi's, and you say my source is inaccurate?I am sorry, but you will not find ONE Jewish source that isn't a "messanic" jewish source (i.e. christians dressed up and playing jewish), that will agree that original sin is a concept that is accepted.Let me put those links up againhttp://www.convert.org/differ.htm
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-os.html
Judaism's Rejection of Original Sin
And then lets continue with a few more sources.
Jewish view of Original Sin
The Biblical Timeline
And a christian source
http://www.greatcom.org/...es/areadydefense/ch28/default.htmShall I go on?

You are trying to tell some Jewish people what they believe in?? Really now.You will not find ONE Jewish source that says Judaism thinks there is original sin at all. (Except , like I said, the "Messanics" who actually are Christians dressed up and playing being Jewish)

Sigh..We have been told to go to the original sin thread.However, I will repeat.Judiasm does not believe in Origial Sin (no matter which definition you give it, and the several that were used were given BY various christian groups).It does not believe in the Fall of man. It does not believe in 'Salvation' as the christians believe in salvation. It does not believe that Genesis shows the fall of man, or original sin.As Saint Augustine said "If there is no original sin, there is no fall, and there is no need for salvation'. Judaism does not believe in origianl sin, under any definition, it does not believe in a 'fall' , and it does not believe in the Christian concept of Salvation.This message has been edited by ramoss, 01-01-2006 01:08 PM

One thing that you have not dealt with is that in your world view, god not only warned Adam, but designed adam, and knew adam would 'fall' before he even was created.So, why did God purposely create a flawed creation that would 'fall'?Surely, if God KNEW before he created Adam that Adam would make a bad choice, he could have created him to be able to make a better choice to begin with?Or didn't God have the ability to make a man that would Choose to do good and not fall from the begining?

If 'creation' wasn't flawed, why did man fall? You can't have creation perfect, with God knowing the results of his creation before he acted on creation, and have a fall that was not planned by God.