Nature and the fall of man

So what's your position? In this context, you can choose Faith's position or Jar's.

I certainly agree with you, but this topic is about the Fall. Some Christians say the Fall made nature degenerate. Other Christians, I think, say there was a Fall but it didn't affect nature. Still others say there was no Fall, that there are only individual falls.The only one of these explanations that accounts for the apparent arbitrary cruelty of nature is the view that the Fall made nature degenerate. However, this is also the one that conflicts most with the theory of evolution. This thread has made me realize the importance of this issue.

Man or men? If the negative reactions of nature are directed toward particular men, it would seem that there is a lot of "collateral damage."

I guess Nature has no smart bombs. It carries out its attacks grossly and promiscuously.

A Christian belief that does not include a Fall in which nature degenerated has no explanation for the arbitrary cruelty of Nature. There is no reason to believe in a Loving God. The evidence points to no God.On the other hand, the evidence for evolution points to no Fall (in the above sense).If no Fall, then no God.

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We are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.--Matthew Arnold"It's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."Our Nada, who art in Nada, Nada be thy name. Hail, Nothing, full of Nothing, Nothing is with thee.--Hemingway

If you don't believe in TOE, then the point is moot. However, the rest of your post seems to be talking about a scenario IF by chance evolution did occur.It seems very far-fetched to me. There was Paradise, then the Fall occurred, and then evolution happened retroactively in the past before the Fall, removing all traces of this paradise. That seems to be what you are saying.

Are you saying that even in theory there could not possibly be any physical evidence of this change occurring--not of the time before but of the change itself?

I was dismissing the idea of a bad God. Nobody believes in that.

To tell you the truth, I've just about convinced myself that if evolution is true, there is no God, and if evolution is not true, there has to be a God.

If evolution is true, there was no Fall. If there was no Fall, there is no explanation for the arbitrary suffering caused by nature. If evolution is not true, there is no explanation for life except God.That is what I've come up with.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-29-2005 12:27 PM

One? There are a thousand. A while back on TV I saw a 10 year old girl(s) with 2 heads. It was horrifying.

This makes perfect sense, if there is no God.

Hi, Ifen. Haven't heard from you in a while.The world might be a "dream," but the suffering is real.

The idea expressed here is grotesque.

By my criteria.