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Author | Topic: Nature and the fall of man | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
No. As I suggested in Message 46, perfection cannot be found in the real world So what's your position? In this context, you can choose Faith's position or Jar's.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Natural disasters happened before mankind's time and during mankind's time. Sometimes they affect a few creatures, sometimes all creatures. It has nothing to do with man's behavior. It is just the way the world works. I certainly agree with you, but this topic is about the Fall. Some Christians say the Fall made nature degenerate. Other Christians, I think, say there was a Fall but it didn't affect nature. Still others say there was no Fall, that there are only individual falls. The only one of these explanations that accounts for the apparent arbitrary cruelty of nature is the view that the Fall made nature degenerate. However, this is also the one that conflicts most with the theory of evolution. This thread has made me realize the importance of this issue.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
This Jewish perspective would support that nature has always been the same, but how it affects mankind depends on man's behavior, IMO. Man or men? If the negative reactions of nature are directed toward particular men, it would seem that there is a lot of "collateral damage."
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I guess Nature has no smart bombs. It carries out its attacks grossly and promiscuously.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
unless you want to introduce to either scenario man's responsibility in the Fall, and the beauty of redemption and eternity. A Christian belief that does not include a Fall in which nature degenerated has no explanation for the arbitrary cruelty of Nature. There is no reason to believe in a Loving God. The evidence points to no God. On the other hand, the evidence for evolution points to no Fall (in the above sense). If no Fall, then no God. We are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night.--Matthew Arnold "It's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Our Nada, who art in Nada, Nada be thy name. Hail, Nothing, full of Nothing, Nothing is with thee.--Hemingway
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The one area I disagree with you on is that even though I don't believe in ToE, I don't think it disagrees with the Fall. If you don't believe in TOE, then the point is moot. However, the rest of your post seems to be talking about a scenario IF by chance evolution did occur. It seems very far-fetched to me. There was Paradise, then the Fall occurred, and then evolution happened retroactively in the past before the Fall, removing all traces of this paradise. That seems to be what you are saying.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
But back on point, if the Fall engendered changes in the very principles of the universe, changing the whole universe (principles understood as behavioural guidelines), and the universe as properly understood to be space-time as a whole, then we may not see the time when there was no corruption at all. We may see some vestiges in the sense of seeing flaws in design from our perspective, but the time period the earth was flawless may not have existed in our universe now. Are you saying that even in theory there could not possibly be any physical evidence of this change occurring--not of the time before but of the change itself?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You cut right to the heart of the matter. But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God. I was dismissing the idea of a bad God. Nobody believes in that.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm not even sure that the Fall is necessary for Christianity To tell you the truth, I've just about convinced myself that if evolution is true, there is no God, and if evolution is not true, there has to be a God.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Why must one negate the other? If evolution is true, there was no Fall. If there was no Fall, there is no explanation for the arbitrary suffering caused by nature. If evolution is not true, there is no explanation for life except God. That is what I've come up with. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-29-2005 12:27 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
No explanation you like anyway. I'm not sure what you see as arbitrary suffering caused by nature. Can you give one simple example, that bothers you? Just one. One? There are a thousand. A while back on TV I saw a 10 year old girl(s) with 2 heads. It was horrifying.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm a bit confused by your personification of nature since there is no conscious thought behind the process from an evolutionary viewpoint. Anomalies happen. I don't see any evil intent behind them. This makes perfect sense, if there is no God.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
This I offer to you as a third approach to your dilemma. Look to the source of consciousness not to the play of manifestation for meaning. Hi, Ifen. Haven't heard from you in a while. The world might be a "dream," but the suffering is real.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Who are we to say that this girl's plight is not the best situation for that family and her at this time in their existance? The idea expressed here is grotesque.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
By what criteria do you make this judgement? By my criteria.
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