Nature and the fall of man

the problem is you are wrong, the jews never believed in original sin, thats a christian concept, they only believed that man screwed up and was kicked out of eden, not that we some how inherent sin, this is a false concept

the problem is RR , that christians see god as being all good, I read orginally the jews attributed all good and bad acts to god, so a world where bad things happen to people would be inline to the hewbrew beliefs in god,
it wasn't until duality because popular with people that you get this incompatibilty with god being all good yet have all this bad stuff that happens that you see people invent the fall.. they had no answer to it, so they made it man's fault rather than realizing that god controls both good and evilits basically making god limited, "god is all powerful but can't do evil things so it must have been our fault!"

I'm not sure you unsderstand what i'm saying randman, what i mean is that oroginal sin is made up to explain something people couldn't answer because they believe god can't do things that would be considered evil, what about storms that kill ten thousand people? if you believe god causes storms, that would be considered evilplus i was saying that the jews had it right when it came to knowing that about godother wise you are saying god can't do something and still claim he can do anything, which is a contradiction

no you read it that way, but it was an uncommon belief that some rabbis held due to reading it that way I think some jews did hold this belief, or else it wouldn't have been taken up by the christians later, but to say it was a common belief by all jews would be wrong, and no they don't believe it now, they believe humans have good and bad tendences because they arn't perfect, nor created perfect what the hell are you talking about? thats how most of the big named christians present it, they say its all about depravity and perversion, now thats not all of the christian groups, but they are pretty vocial.. as I said before the jews do not see the fall as a world shattering event since they know humans arn't perfect

what in gods name are you talking about?! since when did it all become subjective randman, i thought it all was objective with you guys!, anyway where can i find a so called range on this? post some evidence for your claims how about something to back this up?, i've read paul and anyone else on this doctrine and there is no "range" as you call it

I don't know what relevence any of that had with what I was asking randman, you didn't show one thing that shows there is a "range" of anything within the doctrine of orginal sin, other than you making it up.what is your point? that is a common thing with religious beliefs, none of them will agree with the other that is nothing new, I'm wondering if you ever took a class on religion or religions before.

look at any website written by anyone who is jewish and discussing jewish doctrine, when they answer the question if they believe in a fall or orginal sin they will say no we do not believe the fall as christians do or believe in orginal sin!just go query any number of sites answering questions about jewish doctrine they will say this

ok then give me a real answer then in your own words without any sort of word hashing or use of changing what other people say, what is the doctrine of original sin in christianity then?if its not man is sinful from birth, because of what adam did and we are condemmed to hell then what is it?This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 12-30-2005 04:29 AM

that is the common useage of it, what church are you going to that has some ligher version of it? I'm just not really understanding what you are saying. Not history, not doctrines, not paul, not augustine.. youGo ask a jewish person what they think, or are you just going to mind read everyone and say "yep they only are attacking the reformed version"come on, if many rabbis say their religion doesn't include original sin, i'd think they would be more knowledgeable than any of us

true there are differing variations within christian doctrine, but I'm asking randman this because everytime I show that the jews didn't agree with original sin he dismisses it as irrelevent because its the "exstreme" version of the doctrine, I want to know what is exstreme about it, so far he says theres some sort of slide-rule for it.The thing is lfen I view "sinful" "sin" as the usual things that have been thought as sinful, murder,stealing,etcwell everything is grey in life, have yet have anyone who can put forth anything as an absulute

i believe Buddha answers this topic , he says suffering is caused by people wanting things they can't have, so it causes suffering within and without, This is what i at least have read about buddhism

its not the same, people born with both good and evil tendencies is not an origial sin belief, from the way its presented original sin implies evil/sinful nature is alien to humans or some how no part of the make up, the jews believe its part of the nature of man, part of the make upso i don't know where you get that idea, by the way when was man ever called pefect? its inferred from the fact that sin/evil is somehow alien to manAs i said before historically it was a hebrew belief at one point, but name me one jewish sect that believes it now, it was the first sin not the earthshaking one most christian sects proscribe to