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Author Topic:   For percy: setting the record straight on Charlie Rose interview
nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 4 of 231 (286739)
02-15-2006 1:19 AM


The earlier thread
For ease of reference, the earlier thread on this topic was Does Darwinism Equal "No God"?.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 22 of 231 (286916)
02-15-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
02-15-2006 12:20 PM


Re: What possible difference does it make?
the problem is with the biased and non-objective thinking of the originators and leaders in evolution.
Even if the originators were totally biased, how would that matter as long as they science is right?

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 37 of 231 (286981)
02-15-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by randman
02-15-2006 2:03 PM


Re: What possible difference does it make?
The issue is whether the science is right when you have people that think illogically.
When one assert that people think illogically, this usually means that one disagrees with them. Their logic might actually be impeccable. We often say "logical" and "illogical" when no actual question of logic is at issue.
There is a lot of great scientific work such as genetics, but then you have people asserting a context as factual when it is not.
There is often disagreement over what is a fact. And context is relevant here, too. It's a fact that the sun rose in the east this morning, but it is also a fact that the sun isn't actually rising and the appearance of rising is due to the rotation of the earth.
Asserting something as "fact" is just the way we sometimes communicate. Christians assert the existance of God as fact, whereas agnostics would call that a speculative hypothesis and atheists would assert that it is false.
There is a reason so many myths such as the Biogenetic law were perpetuated for so long.
As has often been explained to you, science is tentative.
They are advancing a sort of pseudo-faith that a narrowly defined and limited approach to truth that automatically excludes many thing a priori is a reasonable approach to truth.
You are presuming that there is some sort of absolute truth. There isn't. Our ideas on truth are themselves but part of a tentative theory, and that theory is continually evolving.
I hate to resort to the proverbial NAZI example, but Germany was the most scientifically advanced nation on earth, but at the same time, they adopted prejudicial thinking in terms of race, and so despite their fantastic scientific advances, they also held to absolutely kookiness as well due to their prejudicial thinking.
That's confused thinking. The scientists are/were a small portion of the society. It is rare that politicians are scientists. The existence of a cadre of scientists does not make the politicians any more rational.
Imo, though not as extreme, that's what we see within the evo-community, the ability on the one hand to be perfectly bright and rational in some areas of science, but to be completely illogical and irrational when it comes to questions dealing with the veracity of ToE.
We know that is how you see it. But you see it from a creationist viewpoint.
If it were irrational and illogical, a case of group think, one might expect agreement within biology and geology but disagreement elsewhere. The fact is, there is wide support for ToE from scientists who are neither biologists nor geologists.
As to "the veracity of ToE", may I remind you that scientific theories are neither true nor false. They are accepted (or rejected). There is no certain standard of truth whereby we can judge the veracity of theories. Those who accept a theory will generally speak of it as true. But that does not alter the tentative nature of scientific theories.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 42 of 231 (286992)
02-15-2006 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
02-15-2006 2:47 PM


Re: What possible difference does it make?
1. It is illogical to automatically exclude consideration of something, and then say you have objectively shown that this something is incompatible with science. Specifically, they rule out God a priori and then claim belief in a personal God is not compatible due to an objective process. It is subjective, not objective. There is a subjective choice to a priori exclude the concept of God from the start, by definition. So the process is perverted and false, and yes, illogical because it is circular logic.
I see that as your misinterpretation of what happened.
2. You are ignoring the point of the Biogenetic law. It's not that science made a mistake. it's that there was never any science behind the idea in the first place.
It was found valuable by embyologists. Your characterization is incorrect.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 46 of 231 (287006)
02-15-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by randman
02-15-2006 3:08 PM


Re: What possible difference does it make?
There were no observed facts to support the Biogenetic law.
Perhaps we disagree on what this law is. But let's not argue that here. This is not a Haeckel thread.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 70 of 231 (287069)
02-15-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
02-15-2006 5:03 PM


Re: look again
They believe this is simply logically impossible, period.
I'm afraid that you are misreading that, Faith.
Let's look at the quote again.
Both of you as scientists believe deeply in the law of science and the fact of science, that there`s no way you can reconcile a divine creator and the implications of Darwin`s theory of evolution, yes? And Darwin understood that too because of what he said at the time that he wrote.
Look at the large "you". Does that "you" refer to everybody, or just to the two scientists being interviewed?
If the "you" refers to everybody, then you are correct that they are saying that nobody can reconcile God with evolution. But if that "you" refers only to the two of them, then they are stating only that the two of them are unable to reconcile God with evolution.
The last sentence, asking about Darwin, makes it clear that the "you" was only referring to the two scientists. For otherwise Darwin would be automatically include in the "you" and would not require separate mention.
In summary, Watson is agreeing only that he (Watson), Wilson, and Darwin are unable to reconcile God with evolution. He is not asserting that about anyone else.
And they are logically correct too.
They are presumably correct, but not "logically correct". Logic isn't involved here. It is not a logic question. They are presumably correct, because they are presumably the best judges of their own ability to reconcile.

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 Message 73 by jar, posted 02-15-2006 5:45 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 93 of 231 (287114)
02-15-2006 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
02-15-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Why Darwin rejected Christianity according to the interview...
had absolutely nothing to do with Evolution or the Theory of Evolution.
I don't have a problem with that.
I was commenting on what Watson seemed to be saying. And I was doing that in a failed attempt to explain it to those who are misreading it.
I admit that Watson was ambiguous as to whether he was saying that Darwin rejected Christianity for the same reason as he (Watson), or whether he didn't intend that reason to apply to Darwin's rejection.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 144 of 231 (287612)
02-17-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by robinrohan
02-17-2006 8:00 AM


Re: Logical implications of Darwinism
It excludes an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God.
The Old Testament already excludes that kind of God.

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 Message 141 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 8:00 AM robinrohan has replied

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