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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design explains many follies
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 302 (304914)
04-18-2006 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
04-17-2006 9:14 AM


Probabilities ... wrong again?
The odds of there being an Intelligent Designer are at least 50/50. Either there is an Intelligent Designer or there isn't.
This is known as a false dichotomy. There could be an completely unintelligent designer. There could be any number of partly intelligent designers.
It is also an example of not having done any evalutation to weight the possibilities before making your "probability" guess-timate (I won't call it a calculation because it isn't).
For instance, either the law of gravity is true or it isn't, therefor you have a 50/50 chance of falling off the earth, right?
The fact that one could be a 99 88/100% certainty compared to the other changes the probability substantially.
As I've said before, if you don't know the system you are modelling you cannot calculate the probabilities involved.
So tell me John, how does a {bad\false\worthless} argument explain any follies?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 04-17-2006 9:14 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 1:13 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 260 of 302 (305088)
04-18-2006 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by John 10:10
04-18-2006 11:22 AM


Really?
I think some of you should step back and really consider the wisdom of your arguments ...
This from someone who has, as is amply demonstrated by your several posts, shown zero understanding of probabilities.
... such as, "There could be an completely unintelligent designer. There could be any number of partly intelligent designers."
Then demonstrate that such are not possible - do the work instead of just making the claim. I've asked you several times to substantiate your assertions and all I have gotten in return is just more assertions, or just repeats of previous assertions.
Demonstrate the wisdom of ignoring what all the possibilities might be John, and show us how such willful chosen ignorance explains any "follies" or provides any basis for increased understanding.
Yes, I'm a man of faith who believes in the almighty ...
And I'll say this again: you are not an IDer you are a creationist.
Some people could go further and say that you are a fake, not because of your self touted degree and profession (which I always ignore as irrelevant to the argument -- it's like a reverse ad hominum combined with an egotistical appeal to (selfs) authority), though you have certainly left yourself open to that (based - again - on the content of your posts),
But because you are pretending to be an IDer when you actually contradict many mainstream ID concepts and generally reject any of the logical positions that the basic concept {could\would\should} allow in a rational evaluation -- whenever it contradicts your creationist beliefs.
When you say "intelligent designer" what you really mean is "the almighty God of the Bible" -- and no other.
So be honest John, and admit that you are a creationist and NOT an IDer. You cannot use "ID" as a new fad word for god.
Enjoy.
ps - I'd also like to thank you for demonstrating that you {can't\don't\won't} identify any "follies" - to say nothing of explaining a single one in any way - other than to spout assertions, that you cannot substantiate any of your assertions, and that when pushed for a real answer, fall back on quoting the bible.
... which is totally off-topic and not allowed in science threads, and certainly not an answer to the questions.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by John 10:10, posted 04-18-2006 11:22 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Admin, posted 04-19-2006 9:56 AM RAZD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 267 of 302 (305354)
04-19-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by John 10:10
04-19-2006 4:46 PM


Poor John's insults ...
It seems most here are very good at insults, ...
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone eh?
John, msg 256 writes:
I think some of you should step back and really consider the wisdom of your arguments, such as, ... (quotes me)
The arrogant condescension of this remark, the insinuation that I don't consider the implications of what I post, and the bare assumption that you know better and that you can presume to correct me -- when you have demonstrated no such ability in any of your several so-called responses.
And as I said before, I don't care tiddly-boo what your education and profession is.
I do have a BS degree in Engineering Physics, ... etc. ... My engineering abilities and understanding of scientific principles have served me very well for 41 years, and continue to do so.
Because this is really just another appeal to authority logical fallacy, with the added egotistical twist that you are claiming to be the expert (while demonstrating inability at basic math probability skills). What your claim here is that your argument is correct just because you have a degree and worked. How is that valid John?
The point is that your argument is just plain wrong, wrong on many levels, even uncontestedly wrong (as in the errors have been noted and you have not {contested\bothered} to answer).
You could be Einstein, and if you made the same specious and vapid claims and then failed to correct or to substantiate your position when challenged I would be making the same challenges, the same remarks, the same conclusions, about the failures of your arguments.
Who makes the argument has no bearing on the validity of the argument. What the argument says is the only thing that has bearing on the validity of the argument. If the argument is challenged then you need to provide evidence to substantiate it or withdraw the argument -- you need to provide more what to the argument.
The only thing I expect from someone claiming these credentials is the ability, the willingness and the courtesy of substantiating their positions when challenged or recanting them when they can't do so. I expect this basic honesty from people with high school diplomas (or less), and I certainly should expect no less from someone with 1.5 college degrees and 41 years of work.
So stop beating your chest, John, and stop whining about being {insulted\persecuted\ganged} and start demonstrating that ability you claim by making some substantiated and mathematically valid arguments.
Stop insulting yourself with what you post.
Many scientific principles are provable to a very high degree of certainly, ...
{sigh} ... repeating once more for the peanut gallery: As pointed out science doesn't "prove" any theory, the best that you get is substantiating evidence that doesn't contradict the theory. So far evolution has substantiating evidence. Where some theories ran into contracting evidence, those theories were invalidated (Lamarckism, etc) and replaced by new theories. This is how science operates.
... but abiogenesis is not one of these.
Sorry, I missed any kind of substantiation for this assertion, any evidence, any display of logical thinking, any reason to think it is anything more than just another blind faith argument from incredulity.
And in point of fact abiogenesis has substantiating evidence with more accumulating every day. Since it's inception as a science (essentially with the Miller Urey experiments) it has grown to be rather exciting, imh(ysa)o, field standing on it's own legs.
Denial of evidence has remarkably little effect on the existence of the evidence.
I’m sure this post will generate more insults and questionings of my credentials, but that’s your problem, not mine.
Bare the chest, get out the willow switches, rend your clothes and cover yourself with ashes ...
Yeah, you're just another poor old persecuted christian that gets dumped on by all the unholy anti-christs ... instead of just somebody that {can't\won't} actually answer the criticism of their arguments or provide any substantiation other than making assertions about how great they are.
Clothes make the man, eh? And on sites like this your clothes are your arguments. I suggest you start dressing your arguments with substance.
Now you have two choices: you can take this as an insult, or you can take it as valid criticism and change your ways for the better.
According to your calculations you have a 50:50 chance of getting it right ...
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by John 10:10, posted 04-19-2006 4:46 PM John 10:10 has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 275 of 302 (305804)
04-21-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ptman
04-20-2006 2:49 PM


John's privilages restricted
btw, see
http://EvC Forum: Members with restricted posting privileges
if you are wondering why there is no answer

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ptman, posted 04-20-2006 2:49 PM ptman has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 277 of 302 (306357)
04-24-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by inkorrekt
04-24-2006 8:23 PM


Falsified concepts and credibility
See ramoss Message 88 question on this and my reply Message 101.
That you have "yet to find one ID person to accept what you just mentioned" speaks to their credibility, especially when claiming that ID is scientific, as scientific means acknowledging (and abandoning) falsified concepts.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by inkorrekt, posted 04-24-2006 8:23 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by inkorrekt, posted 05-07-2006 11:35 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 280 by NosyNed, posted 05-08-2006 10:39 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 279 of 302 (310219)
05-08-2006 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by inkorrekt
05-07-2006 11:35 PM


Re: Falsified concepts and credibility
Do you want to read message 277 again before you look really silly?
If Message 101 is not clear enough for you try
EvC Forum: Can't ID be tested AT ALL?
This message has been edited by RAZD, 05*08*2006 07:41 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by inkorrekt, posted 05-07-2006 11:35 PM inkorrekt has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 281 of 302 (310416)
05-08-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by NosyNed
05-08-2006 10:39 AM


Re: ID persons acceptance
But is this a failure of ID or the people that propose ID?
Usually what they end up with is that whatever cannot be explained MUST be evidence of a design\creation.
There are those who say it is independant of a young earth (ie - they can accept geological ages).
But there is also no logical reason for ID to be incompatible with any of evolutionary theory or the relationship between other primates and man -- if they are scientific and follow the evidence trail where it leads.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by NosyNed, posted 05-08-2006 10:39 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by NosyNed, posted 05-09-2006 3:22 AM RAZD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 286 of 302 (312617)
05-16-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by simple
05-15-2006 1:13 AM


Re: Probabilities ... wrong again?
Interesting. John 10-10 is banned and you are answering for him.
His creating things eliminates other possiblities. 100%.
Logically false.
You could have 10 deities creating 10 different things, and this would not suddenly require 9 deities and their creations to dissappear in a puff of green smoke and mirrors.
You have your beliefs, John 10:10 has his.
And one of us uses logic with no conflicts with all the evidence around us, while the other denies the reality in front of him.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 1:13 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 11:58 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 298 by Admin, posted 05-18-2006 6:13 AM RAZD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 294 of 302 (312993)
05-17-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by simple
05-16-2006 11:58 PM


Re: Probabilities ... wrong again?
Maybe in your head in the land of make believe!
Ad hominem - attacking the person and not the message - logical fallacy.
... and in the land of the majority God in question.
Argumentum ad populum - appeal to popularity - logical fallacy.
That is beyond your power to question. Far beyond.
(implied) Appeal to Consequences - logical fallacy.
And of course ignoring the fact that I did question it. Simply and directly ... with no consequences implied or otherwise ...
So in one paragraph you have 3 logical fallacies and one demonstrated false statement.
maybe I should change my forum name to 'defender of the weak', or some such.
Better try "some such" as "Defender of the Weak" doesn't fit.
Thank you for that. It takes a big man to admit that. God bless you.
Predictable tripe. I've demonstrated both your and John 10-10's logical failings, feel free to demonstrate mine.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 11:58 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by simple, posted 05-18-2006 12:52 AM RAZD has not replied

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