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Author Topic:   abstinece-only sex education
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 306 (313190)
05-18-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by macaroniandcheese
05-18-2006 8:35 AM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
how many must die for your "we'll wait and see?"
Ask the anti-abstinence camp. They're the ones I was talking about. How long indeed before the pragmatic instrumentalist method is shown to be a huge mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-18-2006 8:35 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-18-2006 2:34 PM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 306 (313196)
05-18-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by EZscience
05-18-2006 9:48 AM


My view confirmed in spades
While promiscuity is obviously a factor in transmission rates, the mere 'opportunity for transmission' is not sufficient to account for the emergence of new diseases. And what makes you so sure they are so ”new’. Maybe what has increased is our ability to detect what previously passed unnoticed. Chlamydia might fit in this scenario. Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest ”promiscuity’ only became rampant in the 70’s and 80’s. It has a history as old as humanity itself, as others have pointed out.
Good grief, read what I've written. You keep repeating this absolutely irrelevant stuff. It doesn't matter if the new diseases were heard of somewhere, in some cultural pockets or in some science labs, I'm talking about a widespread phenomenon. And sheesh I've been very clear about that. And that link back in Message 36 said the same thing.
But I am still trying to absorb the implication of this statement. Could it possibly be that you have accepted the concept that diseases can "evolve"? I mean especially the ”new’ diseases you contend have arisen - wouldn’t these qualify as new ”species’?
"Microevolution," o unhappy term, was well known before Darwin.
Faith, diseases ARE business as usual in biology.
I'm not talking about what biology does in the lab, I'm talking about what people are coping with in life. What is worked with in the lab is only what is produced by life. It can't give you a perspective on that, it gives you a skewed perspective.
Faith writes:
. it is variations on this attitude that have been driving the promiscuity
Really? And here I thought it was merely the entirely natural human desire for sex.
Yes, you did, and I've answered you thoroughly. That is NOT what is driving this whole scenario, it is the philosophy of sexual freedom not biology that is driving it. Your very view of it is part of that philosophy.
I can tell what is an ”unnatural philosophy’ - the idea that human beings should completely repress their sexual urges precisely at that time in their life when they are learning about how to enjoy them for the first time. THAT’s unnatural and runs counter to everything biological, and that’s why it won’t work.
Ha ha ha ha ha. THAT's the Sexual Freedom Mantra itself. Ha ha. There you have it. Why bother saying anything else? This is the crux of the matter. It's the driving force these days. The abstinence-only people are the only ones who see the handwriting on the wall and hope to head off the coming disaster but there are too few of them and their view is unpopular. {abe: Oh they may be going about it wrong, I don't know as I haven't studied the programs, but the goal is the only one that can save the culture in the long run}
So the forces of Sexual Freedom are driving the culture. And public health has to try to keep up.
Ha ha. Well, as I said, good luck there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by EZscience, posted 05-18-2006 9:48 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by EZscience, posted 05-18-2006 1:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 180 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-19-2006 10:36 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 306 (313198)
05-18-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
05-18-2006 12:37 PM


Re: Public Ignorance?
Is your goal simply to demonize sex or to reduce the incidence of pre and extra marital sex?
My interest is in holding together a viable culture that can avoid self-destruction. A lost cause obviously, judging by this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-18-2006 12:37 PM jar has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 306 (313213)
05-18-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by EZscience
05-18-2006 1:03 PM


Re: My view confirmed in spades
"Microevolution," o unhappy term, was well known before Darwin.
Actually, I am quite sure this particular term is post-Darwinian.
Drat, EZ, you're usually one of the more lucid ones here, but you're being ridiculously obtuse on this subject. Yeah, the TERM is post-Darwinian -- "O UNHAPPY TERM" I said for that reason -- it comes out of the evolution flap. But the REALITY was well known before Darwin. He made use of it in his investigations after all.
Faith writes:
The abstinence-only people are the only ones who see the handwriting on the wall and hope to head off the coming disaster...
Let me guess. Armageddon ?
More modest -- the death of the West. Perhaps a takeover by Islam when we're crippled by internal collapse. The sexual freedom philosophy would have a bit of a problem with that I imagine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by EZscience, posted 05-18-2006 1:03 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 145 of 306 (313214)
05-18-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by fallacycop
05-18-2006 1:24 PM


The abstinence-only program
I'll take from it then that you do not realize that abstinance only programs do indeed withold information (That IS the meaning of the word only in this context). I'm glad to be able to better inform you of that fact, then.
It may be off topic considering the OP as defined, but if not please spell it out specifically. What interests me on this thread is the worldview that is behind the whole mess as defined in the OP, the fact that with one hand they are mixing up this toxic brew in massive cauldrons while with the other trying to cure people of its effects. I suspect that as long as the Sexual Freedom Philosophy is running the show, NO program is going to be able to cope with its effects.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by fallacycop, posted 05-18-2006 1:24 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 153 of 306 (313267)
05-18-2006 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by macaroniandcheese
05-18-2006 8:35 AM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
The wait and see in that particular post was a suggestion that the problem is the philosophy of sexual freedom which won't wait and see because in their view the whole approach is wrong. Sorry I did answer your question wrongly before. I wasn't so much saying "give it a chance" as saying "consider what it's really trying to accomplish." But I've discovered on this thread that's a lost cause.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-18-2006 8:35 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 154 of 306 (313268)
05-18-2006 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by macaroniandcheese
05-18-2006 4:20 PM


The life problems you are describing are way beyond the scope of any sex education program. You needed a personal counselor about a lot more than sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-18-2006 4:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-18-2006 10:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 160 by Discreet Label, posted 05-19-2006 1:59 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 181 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-19-2006 10:40 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 155 of 306 (313278)
05-18-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by docpotato
05-18-2006 4:27 PM


That this is an issue is strange to me. Kids are taught the basic functions of parts of their body like the eyes or the stomach and no one bats an eyelash. Kids are taught how other kinds of diseases are spread and no one breaks out into a sweat.
What's wrong with teaching kids what their bodies are doing, what they will do, what they could do in the case of their genitals?
That's a very succinct accounting of the situation from the science-minded instrumentalist point of view. From that point of view it appears there is no other point of view. Sex is completely divorced from its cultural and moral historical framework and treated as nothing but a biological phenomenon and physical health issue.
You are speaking for one of the "cultures" of the "two cultures" that are in perpetual combat these days, that I've been trying to illuminate. All the descriptions of the problem and solutions to it from your side of the cultural divide have this pragmatic biological focus that to someone on the other side of the divide appears dehumanizing and culturally suicidal.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 159 by ReverendDG, posted 05-18-2006 11:15 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 162 by RickJB, posted 05-19-2006 3:25 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 164 by Silent H, posted 05-19-2006 4:05 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 184 of 306 (313506)
05-19-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-19-2006 10:40 AM


misunderstanding
quote:
The life problems you are describing are way beyond the scope of any sex education program. You needed a personal counselor about a lot more than sex.
Pot, Kettle, Black
My remark was not intended as an insult. What Brenna described seemed to be asking a lot more of a sex ed program than any such program offers. I thought it was even sympathetic to say that she needed a lot more than that, needed personal counseling. She had a lot of awful experiences that it seemed to me a class couldn't be expected to deal with. Personal counseling is regarded as a comfort or luxury in my circles, apparently as an insult in others. Too bad.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-19-2006 5:41 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 306 (313509)
05-19-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by macaroniandcheese
05-18-2006 10:22 PM


See my Message 184

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-18-2006 10:22 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 193 of 306 (313610)
05-19-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Jazzns
05-19-2006 5:04 PM


Quarantine ha!
We have no problem putting a quaranteen on people with some kind of fatal flu even though it is their personal medical information yet a potentially malicious person could keep their HIV, HPV, Herpes status secret under the guys of dr patient confidentiality.
Who exactly is this WE who is supposedly refusing to having STDs tested and identified?
Are you guys aware that when AIDS was getting known that it was the Gay Community that absolutely refused to let Public Health investigate, test and identify the disease in individiauls, because they didn't want it identified as a gay disease? Thus it was allowed to spread among those who had most to lose from it.
Public Health SHOULD be identifying these diseases and would be if it weren't for the political correctness that REFUSES. You think any government representatives are going to be allowed to interfere with individual FREEDOM to that extent?
And think about it. The reaction isn't all crazy either. You don't just stigmatize individuals with their diseases like that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Jazzns, posted 05-19-2006 5:04 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by CK, posted 05-19-2006 6:11 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 196 of 306 (313615)
05-19-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by macaroniandcheese
05-19-2006 5:41 PM


Re: misunderstanding
I do bite, but usually only when bitten, which is very often the case from you -- even in both posts from you that I answered -- but I'm glad we avoided it this time.
Anyway, I haven't been advocating anything about sex as such being bad and evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-19-2006 5:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-19-2006 7:12 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 197 of 306 (313620)
05-19-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by CK
05-19-2006 6:11 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
Do you have a source or a link for this claim?
David Horowitz and Peter Collier were among the first to recognize the problem which started in San Francisco. Here's an excerpt from an article at Front Page Magazine, 1997:
Fourteen years and more than 300,000 deaths ago, Peter Collier and I wrote a story for California magazine about the AIDS epidemic in San Francisco. At the time the virus had not yet been isolated and there had been only 3,000 fatalities nationally. But it was already clear to the medical community that the culprit was a retrovirus, that there might never be a cure, that AIDS cases among gays were doubling every six months and that if the behavioral patterns of gays and drug users did not change, there would be more than 300,000 people dead by 1997.
In normal circumstances, the minimal public health response to an impending epidemic would have been to identify the carriers of the disease by mandatory testing of at-risk communities, closing off "hot zones" of the epidemic, such as gay bathhouses and drug "shooting galleries," contact-tracing of those who had been in touch with the already sick and honest public education about the dangers of promiscuous anal sex among gays and needle-sharing among drug addicts.
None of these measures, Collier and I found, was acceptable to a powerful lobby of gay activists that labeled them as "discriminatory" and "homophobic" and made clear to any public health official who advocated them that they would be doing so at the risk of their careers. As a result, none of the standard public health measures were consistently deployed. Instead, a series of politically correct ideas and "community-approved" policies became the only measures feasible for political leaders to advocate, for the media to promote and for public health agencies to pursue.
Also look up Randy Shilts, And the Band Played On at Amazon.com.
Here are a few other comments on Shilts' work:
Wikipedia
http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/may94bronski.htm
http://www.fumento.com/shilts.html
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by MangyTiger, posted 05-19-2006 9:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 200 by EZscience, posted 05-19-2006 10:07 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 206 of 306 (313787)
05-20-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by EZscience
05-19-2006 10:07 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
Oh yeah. You have some sterling credentials behind this citation.
David Horowitz, a little pseudo-nazi, 'anti-intellectual-elitism', failed-academic-himself, right wing extremist hypocrite who wants to prosecute 'left-wing professors' who actually HAVE academic credentials.
Another pathetic little shill for the christian right who is doing more harm than good for the cause freedom in this country - in his case freedom of speech.
When Horowitz and Collier wrote about the AIDS coverup they were card-carrying Marxists known for their writing for the New Left's Ramparts magazine. Liberals. Lefties.
Like you.
===========================
Late edit: Don't want to start a post for this as it's off topic and maybe you won't even see it, but I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "failed academic." He has a master's in literature from Cal Berkeley, and he's a writer. What's "failed" about that? Is an academic career the pinnacle of life and success in your view? He was among the leadership of the New Left in the sixties and seventies, and has written many books. Radical Son was impressively well written. It's only partisan prejudice that leads you to attack him. He has more credentials of the kind that count than you can boast I am very sure.
And you completely misrepresent his work for academic freedom with your stupid smear remark about "prosecuting" left-wing professors who have academic credentials. There is no prosecution involved, for starters. His objective is to restore the academic function of the classroom against selection processes that hire on the basis of politics as much as academic qualification, and against professors of all wings who intimidate their students with their personal political and other views extraneous to the subject matter of the course. These do happen to be mostly left-wingers, but not all, and the academic freedom proposal covers all professors equally.
Edited by Faith, : to add link
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 207 of 306 (313790)
05-20-2006 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by nator
05-19-2006 11:04 PM


Re: I'll explain it to you AGAIN, Faith
Technically you are correct, but in spirit what I said is the truth. I've pointed out that on this thread everybody thinks there's nothing wrong with sex outside marriage and all the traditional moral boundaries. That's like being against abstinence as such. Even if technically it is presented as an option, a rather weakly defended option I'm sure. But yes, technically you are correct. Mea culpa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by nator, posted 05-19-2006 11:04 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by ReverendDG, posted 05-20-2006 1:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 221 by nator, posted 05-20-2006 9:18 AM Faith has replied

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