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Author | Topic: Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
Why did He allow Pharoah's heart to be hardened? The whole issue is that God didn't allow Pharoah's heart to be hardened - God actually hardened it. You're either missing or dodging the point that CK makes quite unambiguosly in Message 141:
God EXPLICITLY states that it is he who has hardnened the pharoah's heart - he says it at least THREE times. Brian had previously provided the Chapter and Verse where it states that God hardens Pharoah's heart in Message 137:
The Bible explicitly states that God made it impossible for pharaoh to let the Israelites so that Yahweh could show off. Exod. 7:3-5 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it." Exod 9:12 12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. This one has Yahweh happily announcing that He is desperate to slaughter Egyptians to quench His thirst for blood. Exod. 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them Exod. 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
We shall stand in out lot, yes indeed. The bible is a good guideline. There it says our weapons are not physical, but spiritual. He that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. A tree is known by the fruits it bears. A good tree can't bring forth evil fruits. If we see evil fruits, we know the tree is evil. then, by the bible's own word, we are all evil trees.
But we can't call evil acts biblical, or what Jesus wanted and taught jesus? no. biblical? yes. i'm sorry, but if one can't tell that evil acts are committed in the bible, they simply haven't read any of it. further, some of these evil acts are commanded by god -- some are evn committed by god. i think i'll stop you before you accuse me of blasphemy, and provide some evidence that god himself has called some of his own actions "evil." here's an message i recently posted to t.o:
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: please note: these are not ambiguous. none of this "hardening pharoah's heart" business, or "the egyptians deserved the plaques" or any of that. these are acts and thoughts of god that either the author of the book or god himself calls evil. trying to squirm out of it, or saying that it's not really evil is both insulting to the bible, and to god -- he defines it, and he has the right to call his own actions evil if he so chooses.
The measure of 'Christian' is not in being numbered with multitudes of other mostly so called Christian people and what they think or do. no, the measure of "christian" is determined by god, and only god, when he judges us based on our faith. faith will (or rather should) result in good actions.
Some things, like nukes I believe, are so bad they should be destroyed. yes, i agree. anyone object to getting rid of nukes? frankly, i think we should try to work to stop war in general. it may never happen, but it's a good goal and every bit we do helps. the message jesus brought was not one of war, but of peace -- and there are no arguments there. however.
Those who use them don't do so at the behest of Jesus or the bible what about those who commit genocide?
quote: deuteronomy explicitly commands joshua (jesus's namesake, btw) and his followers to commit genocide against six entire nations. they are to kill them all, men, women, and children. and to say that they didn't do this at the behest of god and the bible -- indeed, with the HELP of god -- is to utterly ignore the entire book of joshua.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The above has nothing to do with what I wrote. Try again, please.
quote: But what if they called themselves Christians, and most Christians felt exactly as they did at the time?
Who are you to tell them they were not Christian? Maybe they were bad Christians, or misguided Christians, but Christians they most certainly were.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Where is this again? Christians don't kill anyone. God did have to kill some to set the people free in Egypt, however, because they were so wicked they resisted His authority. right. christians don't kill anyone. like jews or muslims or witches or blacks or abortion doctors or gays. nope. never heard of a christian killing anyone. but yes. god killed people in egypt. so you're sanctioning god killing teachers and other students in our public schools because you're too lazy to teach your own children what you want them to know?
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:Cause and effect. Pharoah rejected God's word, hardened his heart and God sealed the deal. Only reason was because it was not God, butt Pharoah who made the choice. We have that. So, yes, God hardened his hard already heart harder, basically. Not God's fault.
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simple  Inactive Member |
I think it does.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Great scot!
1984 writes: O'Brien held up the fingers of his left hand, with the thumb concealed. 'There are five fingers there. Do you see five fingers?' 'Yes.' And he did see them, for a fleeting instant, before the scenery of his mind changed. He saw five fingers, Is that what happens to christians? they are unable to see what is actually on the page in their own religious text? Look REALLY look at what it says in your bible:
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them. Is the bible wrong? Is god lying? It CLEARLY and EXPLICTLY states that a) God hardened his heart and b) the purpose was so he could use his powers. It's right there!
whisper writes: So, yes, God hardened his hard already heart harder, basically. Not God's fault. Ah so you don't believe in free will - what did you not say so to start with! You believe in the Cosmic puppetshow version. Edited by CK, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Could be but it is not what the Bible says.
Exodus 10:1,2
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD." According to the Bible God hardened Pharoah's heart so that God could show off. He wanted to shake his wanger out there for everyone to see. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is that what happens to christians? they are unable to see what is actually on the page in their own religious text? Unfortunately, yes, it is what happens to many Christians, though others, non-Christians too can suffer from the same handicap. Too often they read what they know is there, not what is actually there. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
True true very true - I need to go to bed but I think there is a nice piece of meat there for an interesting spinoff topic...
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:No. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. A sin is not evil fruit. It is a question of wickedness, and a source of sap and inspiration other than God. If He is in our heart we just will have good fruits. All men are sinners yes, but not all are Hitlers. quote:False! The ones commanded by God were done out of love for man, and were righteous! "Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." --Yes, He made the devil, and the darkness, and evil and good, but only so we could choose, and appriciate the good more one day. The devil is God's servant, for our good. "Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." In this sense of the word, it means repented of the 'bad things' or 'harsh punishments' or such. Things that He as a Father decided we needed. Then He decided on some less severe way of getting the lesson across, or deed done.
quote:Doesn't matter I already gave the context. God is righteous and good! You, who seem to know a lot of bible really should have caught that much. Really! Do I really need to haul out verses here to illustrate that much? Good news, God is good. 1Jo 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. Ezr 9:15 - O LORD God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.Ps 19:9 - The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. Ps 116:5 - Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful. Ps 145:17 - The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. Ps 33:5 - He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. The Spirit of God is not hate, and evil. On the contrary-22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance quote:I hear many object to getting rid of them. War will be here as long as the heart of man is wicked, regenerate, and unsaved, and man still rules this earth. Fortunately, that isn't very long at all. quote:I don't know. Sure sounds like they are in the danger zone. But wiping out millions with a nuke, I would have to say is plain bad fruit! quote:In the case of the old testament stage of man, and God's people, of course that is a different story. They still had physical weapons and the fight was still pretty physical way back in man's kindergarten. The judgements of God are true, and righteous altogether. Sodom, the flood, you name it, done in love every one, and for our good!
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simple  Inactive Member |
He used the bad choices of silly Pharoah for good, yes. Man got a lesson. Pharoah's bad choice led to a point of no return, and God had to harden the guy's heart. That was not God's choice it was God acting as a result of the man's choice.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:Of course, it was Pharoh's free will that resulted in poor God having to harden the buggers heart.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
No. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. A sin is not evil fruit. It is a question of wickedness, and a source of sap and inspiration other than God. If He is in our heart we just will have good fruits. All men are sinners yes, but not all are Hitlers. by the first corollary to godwin's law, you hearby lose the argument.
False! The ones commanded by God were done out of love for man, and were righteous! it's not false. it's what the bible -- and GOD -- says.
--Yes, He made the devil, and the darkness, and evil and good, but only so we could choose, and appriciate the good more one day. The devil is God's servant, for our good. i agree. but evil is still evil.
In this sense of the word, it means repented of the 'bad things' or 'harsh punishments' or such. Things that He as a Father decided we needed. Then He decided on some less severe way of getting the lesson across, or deed done. yes, and the word GOD uses for it is "evil." remember, adam and eve's first sin was taking that which belonged only to god: knowledge of good and evil.
Doesn't matter I already gave the context. having read the old testament, i understand the context. and it's a little different than what you may think.
God is righteous and good! of course he is. god defines righteousness and goodness. (heck, if you know any old english, the word "good" comes from the word "god") but evil is evil nonetheless. and god uses evil, and god does things that he himself calls evil.
Ezr 9:15 - O LORD God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this. when we sin, it is because we are breaking god's commandments for us. can god sin? god is not a man that he should repent -- who would he repent to?
Ps 19:9 - The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. the judgements of the lord. which include, specifically, the exile. that was one of the evils described above, rather prominent on the minds of some of the later prophets, like jeremiah. how can an action god calls evil be righteous? because god does it. god says "i do this evil to you" and we say "thank you, we deserved it."
Ps 116:5 - Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful. these are not neccessarily exclusive. i'm sure you can think of times when god did not show any mercy. for instance, passover is a good one. (though i suppose he could have killed EVERY egyptian...)
1Jo 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. yet god creates (present tense) darkness. we also have to remember that there are a number of competing philosophies in the bible. i know most christian don't like this idea, but there are. the things isaiah says about god might not line up with the things john says about god. people have opinions, and we can rarely get any two people from the same time period to agree, here. there's an old saying about 2 rabbis having 3 opinions between them.
The Spirit of God is not hate, and evil. On the contrary- 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance again, newer christian ideology. christianity has split a multifaceting, complex character of god into three persons: a wrathful father, a merciful spirit, and a sacrificial son.
I hear many object to getting rid of them. War will be here as long as the heart of man is wicked, regenerate, and unsaved, and man still rules this earth. i doubt salvation has anything to do with it. our wise president is a born again christian, and he goes and starts wars.
Fortunately, that isn't very long at all. in the geologic spectrum of time, no. but i doubt that's what you're referring to. don't expect the rapture anytime soon. rather, we should work to make heaven on earth -- live these lives as if they matter. because they do. the trick, i think, to living as a christian is to forget all about any afterlife and concentrate of living this one as best as we can, following christ's examples to the best of our abilities.
In the case of the old testament stage of man, and God's people, of course that is a different story. They still had physical weapons and the fight was still pretty physical way back in man's kindergarten. The judgements of God are true, and righteous altogether. Sodom, the flood, you name it, done in love every one, and for our good! what good does death do for the dead?
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:All things work together for good.. quote:If it was only God's why was the devil selling it? quote:After the fall, man needed some spankings. Not good that. In the little picture. quote:No, He can't sin, and in Him in no unrighteousness at all. quote:You are wrong. He showed great and total mercy as always, to every one that listened, and put the blood of the lamb on their door. Just as He now shows mercy to those who accept the blood of Jesus on the door of their hearts. quote:Of course they do. quote:So he says. A great tragedy. Bad fruit. quote:No. He remembered the afterlife why shouldn't we? He spoke a lot about it as a matter of fact. quote:It keeps them from doing any more damage they will need to account for to the living.
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