Human Rights

Your ability to acertain my logic is flawed. You would know quite well from my OP that it is absolutely a legal right to obtain medical treatment. You somehow choose to ignore that point, and try to make me out to be something I am not. That is not relevant to this discussion. We are not discussing why abortion is legal. Also clearly most pregnacies are healthy, and are of no risk for the woman, although a difficult thing to go through. Not for the fetus

Yes, it is. You are consenting to the risk. We are not talking about legal rights, from the OP you have chose to ignore that I point out that it is a legal right. And that is based on??? From a liberal point of view, I guess it is. But liberals often live in fantasy land IMO. But not all the time, I consider myself half liberal. Whew, good thing we aren't decideing that here. hmmmm, let's ponder that admission for a moment. Clearly this is an admission to where the blame lies, who is ultimately responsible for what happens to "I". How? Which brings up another topic. It's great that you can correct a mistake in life with science and medical treatment. But just how many times can a person keep making the same mistake?You say it is irresponsible and stupid to get pregnant when you don't want to, even though you commit to intercourse.I get the feeling that people should have a licsence to have intercourse if they are irrisponsible and stupid with it. I know you'll consider this a crazy thought, and it will never happen.What if someone kept cutting their arm off, and going to the doctor and having it put back on. After how many times would that person be commited to a mental ward? If we want to make silly comparisons, there are a few for ya, enjoy. There you go again, violating the rules. I swear, I wonder why I even debate with you. That's slander schraf. Wrong. I would like to call it what it is. Which has nothing to do with controling anything.If the earth is round, and I can see that from my spacship, yet you think it's square, doesn't make it square. I can't force you to think it's round, or to stop you from thinking that you'll sail off the edge. It is what it is. I am tired of people calling it what it's not.
Yes, we are lucky that we can correct our mistakes and stupidity. We have a right to be stupid, and irrsponsible, and thanks to the legal system, and science, we have a right to get it fixed, if someone pays for it. But take away technolgy, and there would be no natural right to any harm you might have caused yourself. So what does abortion do, it encourages to be as stupid as we can be, and as irresponsible as we can be, and do whatever the fuck we want, when we want it, without concern for what is actually right or wrong. To me, that is building a castle on the sand.It's how I feel, I think from this thread, I am just in feeling that way. I am not forcing it on anyone. One can decide for themselves after reading this thread how and why I feel this way. One can clearly see how you and crashfrog have attacked me, and my feelings on the subject, and accused me of things that I just ain't. I have been pretty rational about this whole thing, and my view is a realistic one, yet liberals are the ones who claim they are realistic. I hate the whole fact that there are liberals and conservatives, but what you gonna do? Micheal Moore is an idiot. I agree with some of what he says, just like I agree with some of what Bush says, but not all of it. They are both idiots IMO. If you guys want to get all huffy about it, and not accept that it is not a natural right to get pregnant and abort, then thats your problem. I have spoke my peace, and this thread is getting redundant. If a woman has a natural right to abortion, then she also has a natural right to abanden her living children for them to die. If that's the way you think the world should be, then maybe schraf is saying "fuck all the children in the world", are you saying that?whatever it is that gives us the ability to reproduce, whether it's God, or some chance thing that happene millions of years ago, we seem to have little regard for it, and only selfishly want to please ourselves. I am not pointing fingers here, as I am just as guilty as the next person about it. But still, I won't fool myself and call an apple an orange.

Sure, you can jump off a bridge and hope to not hit the ground either. It's all about you, isn't it? Only in your mind. However that is not reality.
I play the lotto, I don't want to lose. Do I have a right to win? Instead of worrying about the behaviors themselves. Shhh, don't ruin it, I got my purple sunglasses on right now.

I agree.I guess there are three different kind of rights we've brought up in this thread.1 legal right
2 Natural right
3 moral right

I don't know if you have a partner or have kids, but can I assume that once you had enough children you would stop having any kind of intercourse with your spouse?Or would you just let God "decide" if your wife gets pregnant and to hell with the consequences?Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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You would know quite well from my OP that it is absolutely a legal right to obtain medical treatment. You somehow choose to ignore that point, and try to make me out to be something I am not.

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No, I think the problem is that you aren't thinking through the logical implications of your arguments before you put them forth, and then instead of accepting that your arguments are crap, you accuse us on not understanding them.I understand this argument perfectly.You are the one saying that you don't think that you have any right to medical treatment if you jump off a cliff and are injured, because that is a risky behavior.YOU said that, rat, not anybody else.I simply am using your own argument argument against you, is all.

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That is not relevant to this discussion.

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Yes I know, that's why I said, in my last message that your statment:

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Not only that, there is a difference between a healthy pregnancy, and an unhealthy desease. Just because a pregnancy is unwanted, doesn't make it bad for you.

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...was irrelevant to the discussion.If you thought it was irrelevant, why did you bring it up?

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We are not discussing why abortion is legal.

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Oh no? I thought we were discussing rights?

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Also clearly most pregnacies are healthy, and are of no risk for the woman, although a difficult thing to go through.

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That's not true. There is no such thing as a risk-free pregnancy.

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Yes, it is. You are consenting to the risk.

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But consenting to a certainty and consenting to a possibility are two very different things!If you knew for certain that the next time you got in a car that you would be seriously injured in a high-speed accident, would you consent to getting in that car? I doubt it.However, there is always the risk of getting injured in a high speed accident any time you travel on the highway in your car, yet you consent to being in that car, on the highway, despite the risk.By your logic, because there is a risk of getting injured in a high speed accident in your car, you are consenting to be seriously injured in an accident, and that it's your fault for getting into the car in the first place.

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We are not talking about legal rights, from the OP you have chose to ignore that I point out that it is a legal right.

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It's the constitution that protects our rights, rat, including abortion rights.

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And that is based on???

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It is based upon the recognition that women have human rights, including the right to privacy and the right to body autonomy, and that they do not give them up just because they become pregnant."Rights" are the closest thing we have to sacrosanct in our government, and a "privilage" is merely something nice we give to a group that can easily be taken away.

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In a sense, she violates herself when she commits to intercourse, if she doesn't intend on becoming pregnant.

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From a liberal point of view, I guess it is. But liberals often live in fantasy land IMO. But not all the time, I consider myself half liberal.

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It has nothing to do with being a liberal, rat. Your statement is bizzare. If you think it makes sense, then explain it so it makes sense instead of trying to blame your inability to make yourself clear on my political leanings.And is it your position that every time a woman has consentual sex, her rights are being violated, or that every time she has consentual sex without wanting to become pregnant, she is violating herself in some way?Because that's what you claimed in Message #126Disturbing and disgusting and wierd.

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hmmmm, let's ponder that admission for a moment. Clearly this is an admission to where the blame lies, who is ultimately responsible for what happens to "I".

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Yeah. So? Does that mean that stupid, irresponsible people, as well as smart, responsible people who made a mistake or who may have done everything right but still drew the short straw in the statistical game of chance that life is no longer have the right to mitigate those consequences that life sometimes hands us? [qs]You are saying that people who take risks are to be blamed and made to suffer the full consequences of those risky behaviors, even when medical science has developed methods to ameliorate those consequences if they come to pass.[/quote]

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How?

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If you fell off the roof of your house when fixing your gutters, because you couldn't be bothered to use proper safety equipment, does that mean that you have no right to medical treatment for the compound fracture of your femur and broken collarbone? You are to blame, right? You are ultimately responsible, right? You were stupid and irresponsible, right?

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It's great that you can correct a mistake in life with science and medical treatment. But just how many times can a person keep making the same mistake?

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Irrelevant. We hope that people learn from their mistakes, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.I know someone who has gotten half a dozen concussions while playing rugby. Do you agree or disagree that it is his choice to continue to play rugby or not, even though he may do himself a permenant brain injury?

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You say it is irresponsible and stupid to get pregnant when you don't want to, even though you commit to intercourse.

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Yes, I think it is.

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I get the feeling that people should have a licsence to have intercourse if they are irrisponsible and stupid with it. I know you'll consider this a crazy thought, and it will never happen.

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It's not all that crazy, and I feverently hope that such an Orwellian thing never happens.

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What if someone kept cutting their arm off, and going to the doctor and having it put back on. After how many times would that person be commited to a mental ward? If we want to make silly comparisons, there are a few for ya, enjoy.

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Getting one's arm sewn back on is not a comparable procedure to having an abortion, as it is far more painful to do and far more complex and risky a procedure with a much longer recovery time. Something like getting treated for genital warts would be comparable, or perhaps having multiple surgeries for cosmetic reasons.

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Yes, we are lucky that we can correct our mistakes and stupidity. We have a right to be stupid, and irrsponsible, and thanks to the legal system, and science, we have a right to get it fixed, if someone pays for it. But take away technolgy, and there would be no natural right to any harm you might have caused yourself.

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That's true for everything, rat, not just unintended pregancies.

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So what does abortion do, it encourages to be as stupid as we can be, and as irresponsible as we can be, and do whatever the fuck we want, when we want it, without concern for what is actually right or wrong.

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Ah, I was wondering when "right and wrong" would come up.Who are you to decide what is "right or wrong" for anybody else, rat?

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If a woman has a natural right to abortion, then she also has a natural right to abanden her living children for them to die.

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No, not at all.Unlike you, I, like most people, can see that there is a very, very large difference between a born, living, independent child and a zygote.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Sure, you can jump off a bridge and hope to not hit the ground either.

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Yes. The two are not the same.

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It's all about you, isn't it?

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No. But I am one of those people who has intercourse and definitely does NOT want to become pregnant.You know...one of those people you say doesn't exist.

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Only in your mind. However that is not reality.

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It is MY reality, and the reality of the millions and millions of people who use birth control! Why would they use birth control if they actually wanted to become pregnant?Do you really not understand this, or are you just so intent upon being contrary that you have stopped making sense again?

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I play the lotto, I don't want to lose. Do I have a right to win?

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Sure, you have a right to win if you obtained the lottery ticket legally, and perhaps you are not an employee of the government agency that runs the lotto or something.It doesn't mean that you will win, but you have every right to if you picked the correct numbers.

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Instead of worrying about the behaviors themselves.

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In a word, yes.That's why we need to make birth control better and free to all who want it, and we also need to teach reproductive health to every child starting from an early age, in order to prevent as many unintended pregnancies as possible.abortion should be the last, not the first, resort, ideally.

Obviously, abortion is a legal right. And you seem to agree that, depending on your religion/philosophy, abortion may or may not be a moral right. So that leaves 'natural right'. First, I'd like to ask just what you mean by 'natural right'. Are you referring to some 'inalienable right' similar to the kind established in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

As I have stated in this thread, I have 5 kids, and I have had a vasectomy. I can now have guilt free, no risk sex with my wife.

I think purpledawn was the first one to really bring it up, and I think she is refering to what occurs in nature.

Ah, yes, you're correct. Thanks for clearing that up.

Except vasectomies are not 100%.

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Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

That's right. I had this discussion with my wife, and we decided that if after a vasectomy, if she still got pregnant, we would definately have the baby.

This is fairly land schraf. You can think your going to win the lotto all you want, doesn't change what is. I might be delusional and actually think I can beat the odds, and get in anyway, I mean who cares, I am caught in the moment, it's a lovely red ferrari, and my wife is all decked out in her high heels, how can I just say no? Sure sure, I understand your point, but there is a part of me that wished there was no cars. Take that statement seriously, because I am a car fanatic. Depends if I have to drive somewhere, or if I am driving for fun, and to get my rocks off. I have never indicated that they should give up their legal right. That's possible. This whole thing was started by Micheal Moore's ridiculus pledge. Yes, because she consented to the risk. There is a difference between needing to do something, and wanting too. Of course it is, right. I thought it was irrelevant, yet you bring it up again? Wassupwiththat?And when he finally becomes a bonified idiot, or have something serious happen to him like Mohammad Ali, what then? What will people say? It's a shame, but he did it to himself, even though he knew the consequences.If your friend could recieve a fix, he would just keep on doing dumb things, wouldn't he? Well me too, but I am surprised that you say it's not all that crazy. You see what you just did there? You went from one extreme to the other, by comparing pregnancy to warts, when I compared to an arm. Actually I think it's worse than an arm.I have a handicap kid. He is 23 years old. I have never discussed abortion with him, or forced any of my religious views on him. I asked him today what he thinks of abortion, and his answer was that he is against it. I asked him why, and this is why I love my son, he is like the walking truth. He answered very simply, babies are for being born, not for killing.It's so simple a caveman could do it, comes to mind. But that's the point of all this. It's not me that is deciding, it is what it is, not what I decide. If it is wrong, then it is wrong, has nothing to do with me. I would rather feel one way about it, and feel that it is wrong, because it is wrong. But I am a very realistic person, and really really it doesn't make much difference to me.
Getting legally drunk isn't considered wrong, but it's not really right either? Am I telling anyone to not get drunk? Am I telling anyone to not have an abortion? How can you say that I am forcing anyone to do anything, when people are responsible for their own actions, and responsible if they get themselves pregnant. Unlike me? another insult? Man you are a piece of work, it's a shame that someone as "smart" as yourself needs to resort to insulting tactics in an intelligent debate.But that's what woman used to do naturally if they didn't want their children. If your agreeing with me, that it is wrong to do that, then so is abortion.What about babies in the neonatal, that need life support to finish their growth and become a living independant being?Babies are for being born, that should be my new sig.