Immigration issues

there's lots of ways to do it.
reduce subsidies,
reduce import tarrifs,
support fair trade legislation,
help foreign governments solve corruption and crime problems (like mexico),
support fair labor standards under international law,
support education in foreign countries,
buy products produced under fair trade standardsi really could go on.
by working to improve economic and social conditions in other nations, we reduce the need for people to escape bad situations.

i think i'm going to have a heart attack. they were new to our society and didn't know our laws. also, where they came from had a weaker tradition of the rule of law... they were from disturbed, troubled places. someone from mexico now, because of his experiences with the corrupt mexican police, might be less likely to trust our legal system... especially when people tend to target him because he looks "illegal". because 1. we generally are more likely to target people based on race. 2. we live here. other countries have just as much debate over immigration laws, but we don't hear about it, because it doesn't generally concern us. 3. for so long, we had almost completely open borders and the promise of a perfect life here makes people think it should be easier to get in. understandably. but our laws are inconstistent and often clearly racist. further, the ways people want to "fix" the illegal immigration problems are unreasonable and short-sighted. if we're so worried about terrorists, why aren't we building a wall between here and canada? because we're not. we're concerned with brown people taking our majority. why do we only have a wet-foot/dry-foot policy for cubans who risk political persectution if they are forced to return home but not hatians who face similar fears in their troubled home? because cubans are mostly white and also have a strong and vocal political presence while hatians tend to distrust the government.this may seem cynical and even doubtful, but it's the obvious reality. our policies are questioned because they are racist (even if they are not racially motivated... which um. i think they probably are.).we have a right to control our borders, and fuck anyone who says otherwise. but we have a responsibility to make sure our laws are reasonable, efficient, and just and support the principles of the rights which we grant to our citizens.

do people have a right to steal food if they are starving, or is it a privilege?it's not about having the right to come here, it's about having no other options. if your family is starving now are you going to sit there and hope the paperwork goes through or are you gonna come in and hang out outside the home depot and wait for a truck to pull up?

we probably need to streamline our immigration policies quite a bit.

sustainable, traditional forms of agriculture and production do not preclude civilization and do not require neolithic conditions. how narrow-minded can you be? one example of traditional, sustainable agriculture is crop rotation. this ensures that soil is not so quickly depleted and gives people a variety of crops to sell and consume contributing to a rich economy and a healthy diet. our corporations have encouraged over-production of a single crop which results in slash and burn agriculture in order to replace the depleted soil. this results in the loss of viable land, local richness of culture and resources, and a reduction of variety in crops that can be sold locally.our methods only help us. they take advantage of and oppress those who work for us.

Interesting discussion. Three assorted observations.

1. 'Hispanic' is not a race. The issue in question would be xenophobia.

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2. Opposition to free trade is the flip side of opposition to immigration. Both oppose foreign workers taking 'our' jobs. The only difference is which side of the border the foreign workers are on.

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3. The US is not 'singled out' internationally for restrictive immigration policies. It just has a well-earned reputation for disaster at processing applications in a sane amount of time.

All US immigration services are badly underfunded. The US has simply gone cheap on this for too long. It's been easy to cut services involving run-of-the-mill foreigners. Foreigners don't vote.The time has come to spend real money.

- Hire and train the people needed to move the applications.
- Hire and train the people needed to guard the borders.
- Hire and train the people needed to enforce the laws.

Do that, and it's feasible to consider common-law amnesties and major policy changes. Without that, neither works._____Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

"hispanic" actually often can denote a racial group, or several. while it doesn't actually mean much in itself (being from the island of hispaniola, which denotes only two groups, one of which is definitely not what we think of when we say hispanic), it is often conflated with the term "latino". there are a variety of groups within this distinction (which really means nothing except "spanish speaking peoples who come from south of america" and they tend to be biracial or better. if you think they are white because they speak a european language, you are sadly mistaken. most have a mix of african, carribean, or amerindian ancestry, and i dare you to define that as not racially distinct from most "americans".sure, some mexicans and puerto ricans (yes, i know, citizens-ish) and what have you are of pure spanish decent. these are not the majority, and the ones i know don't have many problems. funny thing that.and then there's those brazillians and they're not hispanic or latino, as they don't speak spanish. but where do they mark their ethnicity on stuff?Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Well, since all racial classifications are based on nothing more than superficial distinctions in appearance, I guess "hispanic" is as valid a "racial" classification as is black, arab, or italian. Any group with an identifiable set of commonly shared physical characteristics that separates them from "whites" could be considered a "race." It seems that the sine qua non for creating a racial classification in this country is whether the group is subject to discrimination based on their appearance.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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On average, about seven years. But here's the thing. You can come here on a visa almost immediately. And if you keep up relations with the INS and are a productive member of society, there is no reason why they won't renew that visa until they are naturalized.

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According to the INS website, you have to qualify. The easiest way to see if anyone is wasting their time is taking a quiz. Contingent upon the reasons for why you want to come, what you plan to do, etc, will determine the expediency of the process. For instance, students are readily granted visa's to be educated in the United States. Let me explain what is happening. I assume that you live in Minnesota. Is that a correct assessment? In places like Texas, Oklahoma, California, Arizona, New Mexico, etc, its a big problem in a few industries, but none more noticeable than in construction. Here's how it works. A contractor wants to build a new subdivision. In order to make that happen, they are going to need subcontractors. You need framers, people to do post and beam, carpenters, plumbers, finish carpenters, HVAC guys, electricians, etc. Now, for each of these facets of home building there are enumerable companies competing for the contract. So the bidding begins. Naturally, the contract usually goes to the lowest proficient bidder. They often hire illegal aliens for the job because they will work for nothing, but they will usually do a good job. When the immigrants make enough money, because they've run the other subcontractors out of business, they can usually then to run their own operation. Who do they hire? Do they hire the proficient from all walks of life? Not any crews that I've seen. The immigrants typically hire within their community, something that would be social heresy for an American.In Portland, there are two main groups who have managed to do quite well for themselves in the construction industry. Its Russians and Mexicans. They only hire people of their own background. Now, on one end of the spectrum we can say, oh well, that's how capitalism works. On the other end of the spectrum, numerous laws are being broken to make this happen which nullifies the capitalist argument. Meanwhile, many Americans are out of work and won't be hired because they are white or black Americans. Then begins the animosity. And if the white and black Americans complain that they are being targets of racism, the complaint alone lands them the smear of being branded racists themselves. How the hell does that work???? Somebody please tell me.

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It would be the same if Canadians en mass were coming to America.

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Are Russians hispanic??? No. That's because the issue isn't about race, its about people taking jobs from people who are entitled to work here legally. Its not about race, dude, it really isn't. Therefore, if Canadians came here en mass it would be the same kind of animosity. And vice versa, if Americans started coming up to Canada or down in Mexico en mass it would be the same for both countries. That's because no country wants their job market swamped. Its bad for the economy and bad for their countrymen. How does that work? If they don't have to go through any legal channels why would they? At least with the Border Patrol, ICE, and INS, there are thousands of new jobs available which is great for the economy. New jobs means a stronger economy. Now, imagine how many displaced Americans there would be if you single handedly did away with those jobs. Meanwhile, the illegal immigrants are getting all the jobs. You might as well start calling the United States, Aztlan at that point.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Just like the terms 'New Yorker' and 'Methodist' and 'American.' Sure.The details you offer in your post illustrate the point: 'Hispanic' functions mainly as a cultural, rather than racial, designation.It's a spectacularly loose term, as you note. It doesn't have much to do with one's nationality, And the people can look like anything, just as New Yorkers, Mehodists and Americans do.I'd say the term 'Hispanic', in American usage, is understood mainly in reference to language--a person's mother tongue, or the mother tongue of his or her immmediate ancestors.Language is an important denominator of culture. A lot of things follow from it. Other factors being equal, a native population will generally feel more threatened by an immigrant population that speaks a different language than it will by one that speaks the same language it does.

race doesn't have to have anything to do with one's nationality.you say that we cannot call it racism, because it's not a real race. what is a real race? races are artificial groups defined by outsiders based on phenotype characteristics resulting from sexual selection within areas of human settlement. if a group is defined as an "other" what difference does it make if we call it "xenophobia" or "racism"? they're the same disease. you know full well that when people talk about hispanic or latino immigrants, they mean short, brown people from mexico stealing our jobs and refusing to learn english. none of which is true all-together for any real group of immigrants. hispanic immigrants learn english at the same rate as all other immigrant groups. the second generation immigrants are generally fluent in both languages and the third generation immigrants lose their spanish, mostly. just like poles, just like italians, just like everyone else. most hispanics are not as brown as people want to believe, and the short people from certain tribes in mexico (and guatemala, the mayans are fairly small) are only one of many ethnic groups. however, race is defined by outsiders and generally uneducated ones. if john wayne smith in podunkburg thinks 'them dirty wetbacks is diffurnt than him', then he has defined them as a race, and he's probably not alone. you are aware that about a hundred years ago, italians and greeks were not considered white? and not just by nazis.god. if the jews can consider themselves a race (and a single race at that *scoffs*) then it should be quite clear that it doesn't mean anything. but does that change the fact that racism is a problem and a definable set of attitudes? no. it's xenophobia determined predominantly by phenotype instead of, say, calling them french fries.

That's funny. I don't think of any of those as races.But now I just realized something. I asked myself 'So what group do you consider a race?' And the answer suprised me.None.Interesting.Thanks for prompting that moment of self-realization, subbie. But you make an important point. Race is imaginary. No gene for it exists. The concept is socially defined.So ultimately the word, in American culture, will mean anything Americans say it means. I can't push my statement dogmatically.But even by the prevailing social definitions, 'Hispanic' isn't a race. brenna, for example, calls it 'several.'Like the American race, yes?

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

You might find it easier to understand what people say if you actually read it all instead of just stooping at the first part you don't get.What I said in full was, To flesh this out a bit more, just in case you still don't get it, there are a lot, and I mean A LOT, of people from Mexico who want to live in the U.S, far, far more than we can process in a given year, in fact far more than we would allow in a given year even if we could process them all. This creates a pressure to find illegal ways to get in. If we reduce the wait time so that there's a reason for the average emmigrant to believe that they will be able to get in relatively soon, that will reduce the pressure to come in illegally.Get back to you later on the rest of your post.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

We need the work! Especially when big corporations are already sending US jobs overseas or to Mexico, Central, and South America. We need the work. You couldn't possibly make this generalization about all Mexicans any more than someone saying they are all thieving liars. That's an unfair and slanderous mischaracterization. It has far less to do with race or xenophobia than it has to do with dollars and cents, or perhaps even dollars and sense. Because "illegal" immigrants don't pay taxes. Legal immigrants do, which everyone is all for. Then why not place just as much blame on the leaders of their country? Fox doesn't want to help us. The Mexican military even escorts drug runners and smuggles in illegals so it will free up their own economic burden.I agree with you that its a bunch of bs that some of these big corporations are exploiting the worker who is just trying to earn a decent wage. But we at least have laws for them. Reagan even tried to give the aliens amnesty in exchange for turning over the corporations. Unfortunately, that flopped like every other plan thus far, as you'll see in this humorous little clip. Uh.... huh? I'm not familiar with this. Can you share a little bit more about how America is yet again to blame for the failures of other countries?

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In fact, there are a lot of countries with more restrictive policies--just about the entire first world, come to think of it--whose immigration policies range from the sensible, to the excessively restrictive, to the downright xenophobic. Why does America get singled out?

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So instead you advocate a policy that would ensure that everyone is equally miserable? The problem is that no nation on earth can sustain a massive influx of people, many of whom, are not paying in to the system. In other words, they are benefiting by breaking the law, where law abiding citizens are either harangued or cajoled in to giving up their own rights as citizens. Gene has a point. Doesn't every nation have this rationale? If so, why the singling out of America who has been extremely liberal on the issue for more than three decades now?Oh my, this guy is pissedEdited by nemesis_juggernaut, : Added another linkEdited by nemesis_juggernaut, : fixed linkEdited by nemesis_juggernaut, : edit to add

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I'm sorry but that is simply false.If someone told you that they were lying.If you repeat it after this you will be lying.It is also a very, very stupid thing to say.When an illegal immigrant buys something they pay the same sales tax as anyone else.When they rent a place to live, part of that rent goes to pay the same taxes as paid by any other renter.If they have power, they pay the same taxes anyone else who has power pays.If they have a phone, they pay the same phone tax as anyone else.If they register their car, they pay the same property tax as anyone else does.Many companies withhold income taxes and FICA on illegal workers just as they do for a legal worker.Illegal immigrants pay taxes.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion