Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III)

The scientific evidence supports the artic was more tropic than cold pre-glaciers. The peat not dating older than 12,000 years and nothing believed older than 16,500 years only testifies to a young earth.----------------------------------------the surface waters of the Arctic Ocean were ice-free and as warm as 18C (64F) . However, the sudden increase in greenhouse gasses boosted them to a balmy 24C (74F) and the waters suddenly filled with a tropical algae Apectodinium.’Page not found - Green Diary - A comprehensive guide to sustainable hacks, green tips, and eco suggestions

I agree they indirectly dated the time from the sediments in artic but that is in agreement that nothing is believed to be directly dated older than 16,500 years in the northern hemisphere.It also refutes that the artic has been covered in ice to explain why there is no direct evidence older than 16,500 years. The reason C14 is so suggestive of a young earth is that the peat was frozen not contaminated.The direct evidence only suggests the earth is a young earth. Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

I tried opening your pd file but apparently Word Pad does not open this kind of file. I did a google search but couldn't find Seeley's article and why he believes what he believes.This was why I pushed forward Oards chart on the meters of water given water is nearly incompressible. The uniformitarians apparently believe water is compressible to explain why the ice varves 3000 meters has little to no meters of water and yet to them still qualifies as an annual layer.Given the earth was once a tropical paradise in agreement with the creationists water canopy senerio 6,000 years ago and the meters of water missing in the thinness of the lower varves this scientific fact only correlates to Creationists young earth beliefs not Paul Seeleys.With the artic once being a tropical climate there should only be peat dating older than 10,000- 12,000 years and the scientists belief that nothing dating older than 16,500 years old because too them nothing does, scientifically only supports a young earth.

NO this is not true unless you can prove that the sediments were dated by radiometric dating. Sediments are at times indirectly dated by the critters that are found within the sediments. Paleontologist could then justify saying the age of the sediments is 55 million years ago without any direct dating of the sediments.Your the only person that questioned indirect dating and what if anything it has to do with the topic about the correlations of the dating methods. But just to clarify I wasn't taking Ringo's post lightly but exposing how at times dates are based not on radiometric dating or direct dating but indirect dating.I've got things happening so taking a break, got a tournament, projects etc... to finish before the snow falls.

Siberia is one of the coldest areas in the northern hemisphere but it has evidence in its permafrost called peat.Siberia is located in the upper hemisphere like Iceland and Greenland but because of the prevailing winds does not get excessive moisture as does Greenland or Iceland.Yet massive amounts of Peat in Siberia all needing thousands of years to form in a temperate climate are all dating only thousands of years old.The Greenland Ice varves are melting today and the average global temperature its been said to have "only" raisen 1 degree celcius over the last 100 years.=============================================================Siberia was a temperate climate only thousands of years ago same latitude as Iceland yet the 1 degree rise in global warming has not caused Siberia to have a temperate climate today.Given the evidence is that Siberia had a temperate climate only thousands of years ago then Greenland was green and the ice varves only thousands of years old.Either the C-14 dating is bogus and the siberian peat not young or the Greenland ice varve dating is bogus and Greenland's young and not old.================================================================
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=========================================We expected to see the ice get better, get flatter, as we got closer to the pole. But the ice was busted up," Dupre said. "As we got closer to the pole, we had to paddle our canoes more and more."51Borisov argued that this idea is not all that far-fetched. He notes that measurements carried out on Greenland’s northeastern glaciers as far back as the early 1950’s showed that they were loosing ice far faster than it was being formed. 8 The northeastern glaciers were in fact in “ablation” as a result of just a 1C rise in average global temperature. What would be expected from another 2C rise? - over the course of several thousand years?Ancient IceEdited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : To correct a link.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Shortened display form of very long URL, to restore page width to normal.

I'll agree could not find the word temperate in the Russian study must of been another link. The Holocene Optimum period high mean growth rate which suggests a warm summer climate which is interesting due forest were growing far to north in the Yamal Peninsula.====================================================================
The important message is, however, the high mean growth rate observed, which gives information about the warm summer climate in the Holocene Optimum.Page 13Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

Given the Yamal Peninsula was not frozen over with trees known to be growing that far north for thousands of years. Meaning a climate far different may have existed where the summer and winter climatic models that have been assumed are being re-evaluated.With only a 1 degree rise in global temperature today you need a paddle boat near the north pole. Imagine what a 2 degree rise in global temperature would do in respect to opening up the Artic Ocean to the ocean tidal currents.Its highly possible that the Artic Ocean was open 5,500 years ago and that these indicator fossils are only 5,500-9,500 years old.Even Purdue University is questioning current scientific beliefs in respect to temperature extremes between summer and winter in the past.Everyone just assumed there was but now are questioning this assumption due the tropic indicator fossils in the artic circle conflicts with all known scientific climatic senerios.It likely does however agree with the young earth creationists water canopy which I find interesting personally but interestingly the answer the scientists are looking for is in the book of genesis.===================================================================There is a fundamental discrepancy between what kind of climate we expect to result from high atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations, and what kind of climate really prevailed during these ancient epochs," Sluijs said."We, hence, need to improve our climate models. An important question is, what was seasonality like in the Arctic? Was there an as-large temperature difference between summer and winter as there is nowadays?"Source: Purdue Universityhttp://www.physorg.com/news68305951.html====================================================================The cylindrical core samples contained the remains of ancient plant and animal life, which yielded critical new information about the Arctic Ocean during that time. Researchers used a recently developed technique called TEX-86, which enables scientists to measure the temperatures that existed when ancient organisms lived by analyzing the composition of fatty substances called lipids in their cell membranes. Using this technique, the researchers found that sea surface temperatures at the North Pole had soared to 23 degrees Celsius, or around 73 degrees Fahrenheit, during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, or the PETM, about 55 million years ago. Today's mean annual temperature at the North Pole is around minus 20 degrees Celsius, Huber said.Researchers also discovered the remains of tiny algae called dinoflagellates, belonging to the species Apectodinium, which previously had been restricted to warmer regions of the world."The presence of Apectodinium during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum provides confirmation that subtropical conditions arrived in the Arctic during this time," Huber said.http://www.physorg.com/news68305951.htmlEdited by reversespin, : No reason given.

The trees were growing far to the north in the yamal peninsula so the permafrost was not a problem. The mean growth suggested a long warm growing season and the only reason the Russians "assumed" a cold winter was ice wedges in the permafrost that likely happened when the land was quick frozen like as was documented in the other link about the Berezovka Mammoth in the Russian Museum.In the same part of the link as the Berezovka Mammoth it talks of temperate plants and warm weather animals all jumbled together within the Artic Circle along the same latitude as Greenland all around the globe.It was like there was a big flood that just jumbled all these warm blooded creatures and temperate plants together within the Artic Circle along the same latitude as Greenland all around the globe.No real evidence the ice varves in Greenland could of existed with all these warm blooded creatures and temperate plant thriving for thousands of years 5,500 years ago.If you note no wood dated older than 9,500 years old in the Russian study thus no temperate plants older than 9,500 years.==================================================================Ancient IceAncient IceEdited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

It does not sound like the land itself is 2 miles above sea level just the ice. Do you have any evidence the lands elevation is any different than the Yamal Peninsula. Purdue University talking about tropical organism's thriving at around 73 degrees Fahrenheit basically beneath the north pole.These organisms are indicator fossils because they were not dated by C-14 unlike the tropical plants that dated 5,500 to 9500 years old by the Russians.The age given to the indicator fossils is held together only by circular reasoning unlike the concrete dates given by C-14 by the Russians.One can not assume the indicator fossils existed 55 milllion years ago because you have evidence tropical plants existed in the artic latitudes only 5,500 years by the Russian study and no plants existed before 9,500 years ago by the same Russian study.The Purdue said tropical plants basically violate all your global warming senerio's they said:"We,hence, need to improve our climatic models. An important question i, what was seasonality like in the Artic? Was there an as-large temperature difference between summer and winter as there is nowadays?"http://www.physorg.com/news68305951.htmlThe problem with evolutionists they always basing the past by the present.The Purdue University is saying global warming from the past can not be based on our present understanding of global warming (seasons temp extremes), seasonality, etc...You have evidence about the past within the Russian study that plant life did not date beyond 9,500 years. This should raise a flag that that these dates only support the creationists young earth senerio's.If the earth was old the Russians study should of had tree's/Peat dating 50,000+ years. They didn't their evidence does not support an old earth.P.S. In an artic tropical like climate would think rainfall would be the result not snow much like we see in Seattle Washington.I don't see how Ice Varves could of existed however will let you get back to your topic. I've got things happening just trying to raise within your mind a question of doubt about the truthfullness of ice varves even existing 5,500 years ago.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

The lake suigetsu study says that gaseous C14 diffuses gradually within the earth system(your own study)in C02 gases. You have anaerobic digestion(releasing gaseous C14)in the Co2 being generated and we know humic acids formed from anerobic digestion bond to organics and almost all the minerals on the periodic table including lead.Liquefaction sorting explains the lower floating varves are not annual varves. The absense of oxygen (anaerobic digestion)decays organics known to form humic acids. Humic acids bond to organics and almost all the minerals on the periodic table including lead. The clays forming in the floating varves in this liquefacation state would sort by particle size and pressure(enhanced by the Co2 and Methane gases reducing bouyancy (particle density), explaining diatom layers, clay layers, (multiple sorting upwards).The greater age with increasing depth is explained by the C14 diffusing upward by CO2 & Methane anaerobic gasing.One of the other members wondered to if the core taken was colloidal meaning humic in nature. I don't remember you ever answering that question. There is a whole lot of problems for one its a marine environment where the ratio is affected with dissolved C14 and you just wave all the biological and physical stuff away as it has no meaning when this is just not science. Humic acids is the stuff happening in an anaerobic environment as in the sediments of Lake suigetsu. Its just not science to sweep real science under the rug it would be like taking a pigs tooth and fabricating nebraska man.========================================================
http://EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads -->EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves ThreadsWe ground this into the ground on Neds Thread on dating from adam and eve thread. These are just some of the links explaining C14 can and does migrate due to anaerobic digestion and humic acids do sort by liquification sorting due humic acids bond to organics and near all the minerals on the periodic table. With the gasing the dates would date older the deeper into the lake bed meaning all the data is bogus flawed but interesting.Here are the links about just some of the biological,chemical, and physical processes thats happening in an anaerobic lake sediments. No need to rediscuss this for it was discussed to death on the thread dating adam and eve thread. But for those that are not up to speed here are the main links discussed in respect to the lake suitsu varves.Enjoy !!!!!14C is present in gaseous form (CO2) and gradually diffuses in the earth system.(from Razd own study they acknowledge C02 diffuses and 14C is present in gaseous form (C02)).http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htmLiquefaction occurs in saturated soils, that is, soils in which the space between individual particles is completely filled with water. This water exerts a pressure on the soil particles that influences how tightly the particles themselves are pressed together.http://www.ce.washington.edu/...faction/html/what/what1.htmlHumic acids are ubiquitous naturally occurring polymers, important precursors or components of kerogen, bitumen, petroleum, and coal1-3. They occur in soil and sediment4, peat5, coal6, lake water4,7, sea water8, plants and coral skeletons9,10. They increase soil fertility11Routinely humic acid preparations for research have been variable mixtures of many organic and inorganic components. In this study it was found that humic acids bind to peptides and proteins, and can bind 10 times their own weight of clay particles, even solubilizing them.Solution IR and NMR spectra of some fractionated humic acid derivatives were similar to those of kerogen, bitumen, petroleum, and coal. Hopefully this research will inspire new directions in a confused field.http://welcome.to/humics/structurems/humicms.htmWhen microorganisms die in ponds of water or in the ocean, they slowly sink to the bottom, forming a thick black sludge. Over time, this sludge becomes buried and compacted by more organisms and layers of mud. If oxygen is left out of the mixture, the organic matter can’t decay and it eventually fossilizes into the material called kerogen.http://nai.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_detail.cfm?ID=87Kerogens are chemical compounds that comprise the segment of organic matter in sedimentary rocks "insoluble in the normal organic solvents" because of its huge molecular weight (upwards of 1,000). The soluble portion is known as bitumen. Each kerogen molecule is unique because it is formed by the random combination of numerous monomers.Kerogens are the precursors to hydrocarbons (fossil fuels), and are also the material that forms oil shales.Kerogen - WikipediaA factor contributing to the poor characterization of humic acids has been their poor definition and lack of rigorous purification.Routinely humic acid preparations for research have been variable mixtures of many organic and inorganic components. In this study it was found that humic acids bind to peptides and proteins, and can bind 10 times their own weight of clay particles, even solubilizing them. No doubt this has led to many errors, such as the enormously high molecular weights that have been reported.Solution IR and NMR spectra of some fractionated humic acid derivatives were similar to those of kerogen, bitumen, petroleum, and coal. Hopefully this research will inspire new directions in a confused field.http://welcome.to/humics/structurems/humicms.htm
Pore pressures in seabed sediments can vary considerably, and for a number of different reasons. For example, slumping, seismic events and even placing or removing man-made structures such as oil drilling platforms can all change pore pressures. However, because many marine or lake sediments are not very permeable, these effects can often last a long time. Other causes may include the presence of gas and a varying level of salinity in the pore fluids. These cause a buoyant effect which puts higher layers of sediment under pressure from below. All such anomalies will last as long as the sediment's permeability will allow.Page not found – Geotek Ltd. Humic substances are ubiquitous in the environment. Their importance in agriculture and soil sciences has been acknowledged for over 150 years. Aquatic scientists have been slower in appreciating their importance, but now realize that they may constitute as much as 95% of the total dissolved organic matter in aquatic systems and often are equal to or greater than the concentrations of inorganic ions present. In many cases they act as the major buffering system, which has serious implications for acidification of lakes and rivers.While important for microbial processes that drive many ecosystems in our world, the true interest to the chemist is their interactions with other elements and compounds. Humic substances have been documented to interact in some manner with over 50 elements from the periodic table.http://www.hagroup.neu.edu/abouthafrm.htmObserve how small the contact forces are because of the high water pressure. In an extreme case, the porewater pressure may become so high that many of the soil particles lose contact with each other. In such cases, the soil will have very little strength, and will behave more like a liquid than a solid - hence, the name "liquefaction".Page not found | UW Civil & Environmental Engineering A substantial fraction of the mass of the humic acids is in carboxylic
acid functional groups, which endow these molecules with the ability to
chelate positively charged multivalent ions (Mg++, Ca++, Fe++, most other
"trace elements" of value to plants, as well as other ions that have no
positive biological role, such as Cd++ and Pb++.)Humic AcidsEdited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This is a direct quote from the suigetsu Lake study on one of your links. Anyone familar with biological science knows the absense of oxygen causes anaerobic digestion that causes humic acids but more interestingly forms C02 which releases C14 into solution.Which is why all your dates are proportional and increase with depth are not believable. This is a delusional statement because because by anaerobic digestion 14c is being released into solution that is whats responsible for changing the age of the varves proportionally with increasing depth.Its also delusional to believe a mountain of ice could of existed in a tropical climate 6,000-9000 years ago. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
de·lu·sion /dlu’n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

THE LIVING SOIL: BACTERIA
Bacteria are tiny, one-celled organisms - generally 4/100,000 of an inch wide (1 m) and somewhat longer in length. What bacteria lack in size, they make up in numbers. A teaspoon of productive soil generally contains between 100 million and 1 billion bacteria. That is as much mass as two cows per acre.http://soils.usda.gov/...concepts/soil_biology/bacteria.html

The earth is alive with bacteria Razd said if present which means he agreed it would affect the ratio. P.S. The bacteria is all the creationists need to prove his varve data bogus though it was quite interesting, etc...Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

No it only shows that lignin cellose is undigestable. In the link below in Israel they filter off that which is undigestable for a soil conditioner.Anaerobic digestion forms humic acids and because of its affinity to bind to organics and almost any element on the perodic table humic acids could only be a part of them varves and undigestible remains, etc...======================================================================A filter between the two fermenters removes the indigestible material. This produces a fibrous material, likely to be the indigestible lignin and ligno-cellulose. This material is highly valued in Israel as a soil conditioner and water retention additive for poor soilshttp://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/...9085/1089064/1089090 Humic acids are formed due to anaerobic digestion possibly giving your varves multiple layer structure because of liqufacation state of lake bed. Because of the affinity of humic acids to bonds organics and almost all the elements on the periodic table including lead it would be incorporated within your varves.======================================================================In the earth sciences, "humus" refers to any organic matter which has reached a point of stability, where it will break down no further and might, if conditions do not change, remain essentially as it is for centuries, or millennia.Humus - WikipediaEdited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

Were talking dissolved organic matter not just carbon sources from Methane and C02 that are motive. Humic acids has an affinity to bond to more than 50 elements on the periodic table. Thats a whole lot of dissolved organic matter present in aquatic systems where did it come from if not anaerobic digestion? ======================================================================About Humic SubstancesAquatic scientists have been slower in appreciating their importance, but now realize that they may constitute as much as 95% of the total dissolved organic matter in aquatic systems and often are equal to or greater than the concentrations of inorganic ions present. In many cases they act as the major buffering system, which has serious implications for acidification of lakes and rivers.Humic substances have been documented to interact in some manner with over 50 elements from the periodic table.http://www.hagroup.neu.edu/abouthafrm.htm