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Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 405 (452913)
01-31-2008 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by cavediver
01-29-2008 7:58 AM


... In the beginning
The Big Bang/Singularity is not the origin of the Universe, it is merely one end of it.
The multiverse theory is the only attractive alternative to answering the question of the First Cause without invoking the supernatural because the beginning of this universe could have spawned out of the death throes of a Big Crunch in an alternate universe. But it does still delay the inevitable question of causation. And there is no way, thus far, to answer that with veracity.
The Universe is not 'made of energy' in the way that oceans are not 'made of waves'.
The singularity is the breakdown in the physics of classical General Relativity at T=0 in the Big Bang cosmology.
Strictly, the singularity does not exist as it is simply the artifact of inapplicable mathematics (as quantum General Relativity is required at this point.)
Colloquially, the singularity refers to the ultra-dense, ultra-hot state around T=0 (up to say T=10^-43 secs), and all evidence points to this very much existing.
Whether or not T=0 represents the lowest bound on T is very much work in progress.
God is not a singularity, unless you want to redefine 'singularity' to mean 'that which is God', and then it no longer has any meaning in mathematics/physics.
If we understand singularity to be the nanoseconds prior to Planck's Time, where energy was infinitesimal, then we still are dealing with why and how something -- anything -- can come from absolute nothingness.
Some people tend to dismiss the question, possibly because of their philosophical implications, and choosing rather to minimize it. They end up saying things like, science is only interested in what we can know. But that us patently false, or at least misleading. The how and why is the only thing science is concerned with. For instance, we already knew that what comes up must come down. What we wanted to know, was how and why.
This is precisely why questions of origin are so appealing to so many people. Its a fascinating subject. The only problem is that even in our advanced technological state, we are still as clueless to answering that questions now than when we first started asking it.
Therefore there is no North Pole.
The Hawking solution, which seems to be just pretend that such a question about the singularity is immaterial, is begging the question.
If one cannot go beyond the North Pole, it doesn't negate what North means in relation to the laws of physics. Likewise, just because the singularity seems to be the advent of physical law itself, wondering what its cause is does not detract from its greater context, IMO.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 7:58 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 7:43 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2008 8:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 405 (452937)
01-31-2008 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by cavediver
01-31-2008 7:43 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
quote:
The multiverse theory is the only attractive alternative to answering the question of the First Cause without invoking the supernatural
No, not at all. There are several ideas
I'm sure there are many theories, I guess I was just relaying the only theories that seemed plausible to me.
Something does not 'come' from nothing. But you are assuming that the thing it comes from has to be 'before'. Why is that?
Because anything that begins to exist has to have some force prior to explain its cause. Nothing material has begun to exist without a cause. And that cause is always outside of itself. That seems rather axiomatic to me.
Those outside the field are clueless
It seems everyone is clueless in that arena, even brilliant cosmologists, whose real power seems to lie in jargon. And that's not saying anything negative about those in that field. Its just that no one has any definitive answers, but we are all seeking one, from the layman to the cosmologist.
quote:
The Hawking solution, which seems to be just pretend that such a question about the singularity is immaterial, is begging the question.
No disrespect, Nem, but the No-Boundary proposal is physics so advanced that whatever it 'seems' is immaterial. Let me assure you that there is no pretending, and there certainly is no begging the question.
I assume you are speaking about quantum physics, and how what seems ordinary and plain as day may actually be an obscurantist. That also may be a straw man where someone will say that its so complicated that no explanation is either necessary, nor will it suffice.
quote:
If one cannot go beyond the North Pole, it doesn't negate what North means in relation to the laws of physics.
Yes, it definietly does. That is the point of the analogy. At T=0 in classical big bang, or in no-boundary, there is no concept of before. But as I asked earlier, if you are looking for a cause, why does it have to be in the past?
Because time and space are intimately connected, and material has to exist within it. I mean, isn't that the very definition of the singularity -- the point at which time-space, matter, and energy came in to existence?
I assume you are thinking of some profound thing that I am overlooking, but currently I'm not sure what you arriving to. Can you expound for me?

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 7:43 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 8:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 405 (453130)
02-01-2008 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by cavediver
01-31-2008 8:58 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
Doesn't actually sound like I need to reply; you seem to have it all figured out.
Actually, that's what I seemed to have gotten back from you. I'm sure you are brilliant in your own right, but thus far you seem to condescend to people without giving explanations.
If there is no actual singularity, then there was no beginning. If there was no beginning, then why doesn't observation confirm that?
Doesn't actually sound like I need to reply; you seem to have it all figured out. In how many other ultra-technical frontier sciences are you an expert, or have you just specialised in this one?
No one needs be an expert with the givens. These are givens. If they are not, then an explanation as to why not would be helpful -- far more so than condescending to people.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 8:58 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 3:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 405 (453237)
02-01-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by cavediver
02-01-2008 3:22 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
I thrive off explaining this science to those with a desire to learn, because I love educating (why it was my career for so long) and I love this science (why I was a scientist in this field)
I guess I'm waiting for the punchline or some explanation as to why singularity has no relevance to space-time, especially when it is a point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.
I condescend to those that think they can make bold claims in a field with which they have but the most passing aquaintance - and not only any field but one of the most esoteric and far removed from common sense in the whole of scientific endeavour.
Common sense would say that something coming from nothing is preposterous. Again, no PhD's required for axioms. But if you have some legitimate reason for your assertion, then please present it so that we all can learn.
quote:
No one needs be an expert with the givens
No, they don't, especially if they don't mind naively spouting unadulterated bullshit. This is quantum mechanics and general relativity all rolled up together... do you want to dare to tell me what the givens are????
Something doesn't come from nothing. That is a given. If it is not, I would be most interested in hearing why it is otherwise.
That said - look at my post 13, and your reply 101. I don't see many questions there - I see posturing and half-baked nonsense claims.
Its nonsense to think that the cause of everything is inconsequential? That's half-baked nonsense?
Do you really think you understand what Hawking is saying well enough to be able to claim that he is question-begging??? Really?
I've read a couple of books by Hawking, particularly where his famous dictum comes from, which is. I believe, The theory of everything. This book is not technical. In fact, he wrote in such a way so that even people with a passing knowledge of astrophysics could get a grasp.
You seem to think that I am misinterpreting what he meant by his north pole analogy. If so, explain what I'm not getting.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 3:22 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by molbiogirl, posted 02-01-2008 6:14 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 191 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 6:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 405 (453328)
02-01-2008 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by molbiogirl
02-01-2008 6:14 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
You are making cavediver's point with your obvious ignorance of basic physics. High school level physics.
Dearest MBG,
The more time I spend in here, the more I am aware that you are a very mean-spirited person who enjoys causing problems. You don't seem to want any actual solutions, you just seem like you want to joust for the sake of jousting.
You annoy more than anyone else, hands down, which is really saying a lot. I'm sure this probably likewise for you as well.
I am choosing to ignore you from here on out. It would be greatly appreciated if you kept your snide comments to yourself from now on.
Thank you.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by molbiogirl, posted 02-01-2008 6:14 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by molbiogirl, posted 02-01-2008 11:06 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 405 (453335)
02-01-2008 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by cavediver
02-01-2008 6:18 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
Who says it has no relevance?
I'm assuming you since you keep excoriating me over it.
Yes, 'common sense' would - but until you can actually define what you mean by 'something', 'from' and 'nothing' in the context of a solution to the Einstein Field Equations, the phrase has absolutely no meaning. I can assure you that this is not trivial.
Stop trying to assure me and just show me. You seem to be relying on telling us all about your brilliance in the field of cosmology and astrophysics as they pertain to the Big Bang.
Unleash your fury. We're all dying to know what you know. I have asked you a couple of times now to explain what you mean. Thus far, you just keep repeating words, like, "nonsense" over and over. As much as I'd love to take you at your word, I am trying to have you teach me. I'm a sponge, cave, but I need something of substance to sop up.
quote:
The multiverse theory is the only attractive alternative to answering the question of the First Cause without invoking the supernatural
Complete nonsense
My opinion is nonsense? Offer me a model that makes sense.
quote:
The Hawking solution, which seems to be just pretend that such a question about the singularity is immaterial, is begging the question.
Unbelievable nonsense
Is it?
"Asked in October 2005 on the British daytime chat show Richard & Judy, to explain his assertion that the question "What came before the Big Bang?" was meaningless, he compared it to asking "What lies north of the North Pole?" -url=Steven HawkingsWiki - Wikipedia[/url]
Other people seem to understand that he meant exactly what I interpreted it to mean. Does that seem unusual given your charge of it being unbelievable nonsense?
Hawking's solution to the singularity is not the 'north pole' analogy... the analogy is a way of explaining his solution to the layman.
At the end of the day, he's still saying that the universe came from nothing.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 6:18 PM cavediver has not replied

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