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Author Topic:   Is complexity an argument against design?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 23 of 142 (315996)
05-29-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Philajnjjj
04-26-2006 3:13 PM


Complex - Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts.
Simple - Having or composed of only one thing, element, or part.
Complexity and simplicity both support the presence of a Designer because simple parts have essentially no ability to interconnect and interweave themselves into complex parts.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 25 of 142 (316205)
05-30-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Wounded King
05-29-2006 3:09 PM


What I'm saying is that even single elements show evidence of great design complexity. The ability of single elements to form themselves into complex systems show much much greater evidence that a Designer is the cause behind both the simple and the complex.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 53 of 142 (475384)
07-15-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
06-04-2007 5:10 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Many of us believe in the Bible. I believe in the Bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that much of it is myth.
Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Jonah was a myth!
Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
If man gets to pick and choose what parts are true and what parts are not true, then man might as well reject the whole Bible.
Better to say only the learned of us know only in part, rather than say parts of the Bible are myths.
1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 55 of 142 (475415)
07-15-2008 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Brian
07-15-2008 4:24 PM


Re: God as perfect?
when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
Mark 10:13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
15 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Big difference between putting away childish things, and entering the kingdom of God as a little child (see John 3:3-7).
When one does so, one finds Jesus speaks truth to His children, not myths (see John 14:6).
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 57 of 142 (475482)
07-16-2008 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Brian
07-16-2008 3:10 AM


Re: God as perfect?
But to convey a truth doesn't necessarily mean the supporting examples actually happened.
Your argument is with Jesus, not with me. Words have precise meanings, and when Jesus said, "just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt 12:40), He either spoke literal truth or He did not.
You choose to believe He did not speak literal truth.
I and millions of others who have entered into the kingdom of God via the new birth (John 3:3-7) Jesus gives know that He did.
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 60 of 142 (475550)
07-16-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by onifre
07-16-2008 1:11 PM


Re: God as perfect?
What method did you use to determine that He meant that literally?
The one where Jesus declared,
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6)
and
"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21)

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 62 of 142 (475555)
07-16-2008 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by bluescat48
07-16-2008 1:46 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Maybe you and your millions of others can believe your ideas based on John 3:3-7, but as for I and millions of others, who do not believe that the biblical scripture is true without significant evidence for other sources, your evidence doesn't alter my ideas at all. Since neither you nor I have any evidence whether any biblical account is true or not It seems that we would be at a stalemate as to whether the following
Jesus said, "just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"
is true or not.
It seems your problem is also with the words of Jesus, not with me. Those that enter into the kingdom of God via the new birth find the reward He gives to those who seek Him.
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Heb 11:6)
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 64 of 142 (475558)
07-16-2008 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by onifre
07-16-2008 5:44 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Now, lets try this again. You said you take it to be a literal story, what method are you using to determine that?
I suggest you start by reading the Gospel of John, asking God to help your unbelief and prove Himself to you as you read His word.
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD. (Jer 29:13-14)

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 65 of 142 (475560)
07-16-2008 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Coyote
07-16-2008 6:04 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
It is amusing that a thread devoted to intelligent design quickly devolves into a discussion of religion and scripture.
The discussion of scripture was started by others, not by me.
It's even more amusing to read how the explanations of incredible designs have somehow evolved in the universe and life here on earth, all without an Intelligent Designer.
Edited by John 10:10, : added sentence

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 68 of 142 (475603)
07-16-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by onifre
07-16-2008 6:57 PM


Re: God as perfect?
What you want from us is for us to adopt your beliefs and take YOU on faith that you're right.
It's not my beliefs and faith that you need. You will have to get your own beliefs and faith from the author and finisher of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 69 of 142 (475604)
07-16-2008 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coyote
07-16-2008 10:29 PM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
There is scientific evidence for evolution; there is no scientific evidence for an intelligent designer.
As that famous philosopher Bill Clinton once said,
"It all depends on what is is."
We've been thru this many times before. Your definition of scientific evidence for evolution is much different than mine, and so is the scientific evidence for our Creator/Intelligent Designer.
When you stand before Him in the resurrection, you won't be asking for scientific evidence then.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 75 of 142 (475778)
07-18-2008 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Brian
07-17-2008 3:26 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Your should be aware that your Holy Book advises you not to tell lies.
I simply looked at the post just before mine which described the creation scriptures as myths, and responded.
Did Jesus tell lies in John 10:27-28 when He said,
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them."

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 77 of 142 (475783)
07-18-2008 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by bluescat48
07-18-2008 9:10 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Your definition of scientific evidence is of no more value than my definition of an afterlife. Science advances based on evidence not speculation. Do chemists still search for the philosopher's stone?
The "so-called" scientific evidence/proof of the ToE is unlike any other scientific evidence/proof that is derived in any other scientific field of study. In any other scientific field of study, results are repeated/verified from start to finish to a high degree of accuracy. When science verifies phenomenon in such manner, these phenomenons can then be called scientific truths or laws. For the ToE, no such results can be repeated/verified from start to finish to a high degree of accuracy because of the billions of years it would take to verify the ToE. As such, the ToE remains "off limits" to true scientific study which produces start-to-finish results that can be accurately verified and repeated time and time again. The ToE's main purpose is but to run and try to hide from our Creator.
If the "so-called" evidence for the ToE can be called verified science, even more so can the knowledge that our universe and life here of earth could only come about through an Intelligent Designer.
Edited by John 10:10, : revised sentence

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 78 of 142 (475784)
07-18-2008 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Brian
07-18-2008 9:34 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
But, it all depends how we treat the sources, if we are blind unthinking robots then we accept everything at face value, but if we can think for ourselves, and we are truly interested in finding out the truth, then we will have a more critical approach to the sources.
It all depends on knowing the ONE who gives you eternal life.
1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
Blessings

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 80 of 142 (475788)
07-18-2008 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by bluescat48
07-18-2008 9:59 AM


Re: Where's the science in intelligent design
Then state the evidence of intelligent design in someway other than biblical mythology. Show some evidence of ID other than the eye or the bacterial flagellum both that have been refuted.
The evidence is there to see for those who KNOW our Creator.
For those who do not know our Creator, no evidence will suffice until Heb 11:6 becomes a reality in your life.
Blessings

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