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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 173 of 341 (488836)
11-18-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Jazzns
11-18-2008 11:04 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
If you consider water boarding ... for the purpose of obtaining intelligence info so as to protect the US from folks like these who's goal is to destroy America and other civilizations by terror as torture, yes I Do WAMT these people to be tortured and kept in jail without trial.
The military limits the treatment that can be done to prisoners. Waterboarding is considered torture in the military and is illegal. During the Vietnam war two U.S. soldiers were court-martialled for using it against a North Vietnamese POW. John McCain himself is an opponent to waterboarding and other torture practices.
How far down this slipper slope do we go? What about electroshock treatment? Pulling fingernails? Cutting off limbs? Do we go back to the inquisition type tortures? So where do we draw the line? When they are dead? If so, what differentiates us from the terrorist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2008 11:04 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2008 12:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 204 of 341 (489095)
11-23-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Dawn Bertot
11-23-2008 9:23 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Bertot writes:
"Imagine theres no John Lennon. Hey guess what theres not, hes dead"
That's class. Make fun of the dead guy.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-23-2008 9:23 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-23-2008 9:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 207 of 341 (489098)
11-23-2008 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Dawn Bertot
11-23-2008 9:45 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
No. just anyone who refuses to adhere to authority as is indicated by the definition. Anyone who ignores rational sain behavior in place of anarchy.
So I guess the White Rose movement in Nazi Germany were evil, liberal anti-authoritarian anarchists. They were definately not rational or sane since many of them were arrested and executed, right?
Or how about the civil rights movement of the 60's. They were definately anti-establishment, many were arrested for disobeying state laws promoting discriminetation and segregation of African Americans.
Or why not got back to the very foundation of this country. Rebel colonialists according to the British monarchy were considered anarchists and dare I say "liberal".
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-23-2008 9:45 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-23-2008 10:47 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 211 of 341 (489103)
11-23-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dawn Bertot
11-23-2008 10:47 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Actually most if not all of these examples are anrchy and liberalism. The results which came about may be more benificial than the previous condition, but the end does not justify the means. In the instances where there is obvious physical abuse and death, for no obvious or justified reason, the government is not acting in a sane manner, so a person has a given right to protect and defend themselves, or have others protect them. Otherwise it should be non violent change that brigs about change in policies.
BTW, liberalism is not synonomous with anarchy. Where do you get this from?
According to the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
Liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in ”a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actions . as they think fit . without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Man’ (Locke, 1960 [1689]: 287). Mill too argued that ”the burden of proof is supposed to be with those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibition . . The a priori assumption is in favour of freedom . ’ (1963, vol. 21: 262).
That is everyone has equal rights and freedoms as outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights drafted and radified by the UN as well as those in the US Declaration of Independence.
However, I do agree basically with your premise that change in laws and legislation should be done in a non-violent manner if possible unless it immediately endangers the lives of fellow human beings. Even the colonists initially attempted to peacefully change the unjust laws that were binding against them.
Tryanny in whatever form is not justified, even if you want to start another country.
I guess you don't approve of the colonialist cause for the Revolutionary War than? The British specifically said the colonialists were committing tyrany. How about overthrowing apartheid in South Africa? The overthrow of the British in India? The overthrow of colonialism in the 19th and 20th centuries?
What about your war in general? WWII? Should we not have come to aid of our allies? Where do you draw the line?

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-23-2008 10:47 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-25-2008 9:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 217 of 341 (489163)
11-24-2008 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by bluescat48
11-23-2008 7:58 PM


Re: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
I myself cannot (active duty military) and have never smoked marijuana. However I really don't see the big deal since smoking another and probably even more harmful drug, tobacco, is not illegal.
I know this is probably off-topic but I thought you would get a kick out of this article from ScienceDaily
Ohio State University scientists are finding that specific elements of marijuana can be good for the aging brain by reducing inflammation there and possibly even stimulating the formation of new brain cells.
You can read on but thought you pot heads might enjoy this article.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by bluescat48, posted 11-23-2008 7:58 PM bluescat48 has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 228 of 341 (489278)
11-25-2008 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
11-25-2008 9:49 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Most if not all activist liberals advocate anarchy through thier actions. For example when Onfrie and others openly admit that they smoke pot and take ILLEGAL drugs they are involving themselves in ANRCHY against the law. If they are not then please tell me what they are doing. Are they simply advocating thier liberalism?
A. Not all liberals are pot smokers.
B. Smoking marajuana is not illegal in all states i.e. medical use in California (whether or not you agree this is irrelevant)
C. There are many independent non-liberals i.e. liberatarians who advocate the legalization of marijuana.
D. I am sure there have been many conservative republicans who have smoked marijuana earlier in their youth.
I am not saying this makes it right to go against the law if your state makes it illegal. I am just making the point that being a liberal does not mean your an anarchist.
And no I have not nor will ever smoke marajuana just as I am not or will be a habitual tobacco smoker (though I have smoked an occasional cigar). That is my personal perogative. BTW, I am not a liberal, I am an independent and a populist.
Oh, only if this were practiced it would be a wonderful world. Freedom is not freedom to do anything you want but freedom with in the law. Equal rights are not the right to violate the law in practice or intention.
I agree unless the laws are unjust, such as the discremenatory laws of the pre-1960's in the US.
I certainly do not agree with such things as property tax or inheritence tax, but I am required to follow the law regardless of my personal convictions as to why I dont like it or think it is wrong.
No disagreement here.
I can say this to you because I am not a Squid or anchor clanker as yourself but was a member of a real service The Air Force, ha ha. But swabbies have thier functions as well I suppose, Ha ah again.
My Dad was AF for 21 years, so I have dual heritage. Good to here another military voice on this board despite our political differences.
I heard this one the other day, thought you would have a laugh:
An Air Force officer and a Navy officer go into a bathroom. They both urinate, and the Navy guy starts to walk out. The Air Force guy says, “You know, in the Air Force, they teach us to wash our hands after taking a piss.” The Navy guy says, “In the Navy, they teach us not to piss on our hands.”
A persons life is not decided in a single action or even several. The colonists were an anrchists. What they were for thier whole life as relates to God is a different story. Situation ethics is a myth and in violation to Gods will. If I lie aboout someone in a closet because someone will kill them if I tell, its still a lie. My favorite Old Testament character Abraham lied to Pharoah about his wife to protect her and keep her, but it was lie nonetheless. Except for insolated icesodents, he was overall faithful to God and called the Father of the faithful.
So the Germans and Dutch who hid their Jewish friends in their houses (i.e. Ann Franke, etc) and lied to the Nazi's about hiding Jews were wrong to do this?
You say YOUR war. Do you not agree that we should defend ourselves or others that need assistance from AGGRESSORS? Cavediver would be a prisoner now if it were not for my relatives taking a stance against the Nazis and he would not be able to bore me with his Vacuous speeches, ha ha.
Sorry that was a typo I meant to say "What about war in general?"
Of course I believe we have the inherent right of self defense and collective self defense of our allies or I would not be in the Navy. Of course I believe WWII was justifiable. However, every war is not.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-25-2008 9:49 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 238 of 341 (489414)
11-26-2008 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Buzsaw
11-26-2008 8:28 PM


Re: Gates & Stealth
Obama's lack of qualification and experience to be President behooves him to keep the military from mutiny and have qualified holdovers stay to keep the government going and to placate roughly 50% of us Americans who believe Obama is bad for America.
And over 67% of Americans disaproved of President Bush's performance. Your point?
And no, nobody in the military that I am aware of are thinking about commiting mutiny. I would say that from my perspective roughly about half the people in the Navy I know voted for McCain and the other half voted for Obama.
The reason Gates is being kept in office is due to security reasons. You never want to change horses midstream. Besides Gates is still cleaning up the mess that Rumsfield made.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2008 8:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 266 of 341 (490009)
12-01-2008 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-30-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Under the oppression of socialized medicine via a president Obama, our freedom to apply safe and effective unconventional alternative health care would be limited further.
Buzzsaw, what kind of unconventional alternative health care are you peddling? Chiropractic care is pretty main stream now for treating a host of muscle and skeletal ailments. Also my wife is from NC and makes a mean Jack Daniel hot totty to "cure" the common cold by knocking me out, literally. Or are you talking about witch doctor and snake oil stuff i.e. colon cleanse, holy handkerchiefs, etc.?

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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