Anything Divine in the Bible?

No but yes seems to be your answer below. A Divine Creator PERIOD. That's all I need to know. That is a God. I am not arguing that. I am simply pointing out that Jefferson supplies legitimacy to his concept of human govenrment by refering to an ultimate Governor - a Creator. That is a God. Sorry.He was not an atheist or an agnostic proposing human government in a vacuum with all disregard to any ultimate Governor.The poster implied that owe God nothing for the existence of Human GOvernement. Thomas Jeffeson would not agree with him.Whether Jefferson believed in Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, the Christian God, or a Deist God makes no difference. It is a an ultimate Governor a creating final authority as the basis of the legitimacy of human government in this case. Well, you apparently didn't read about the 50th year of Jubilee ordained in the Old Testament. Every 50 years, depts were forgiven, slaves were released, property was returned.Regular cicles of release from captivity ordained by this God of Israel for the priests to carry out in the Old Testament. Why did he have a Bible then? Why did he have something called "Jefferson's Bible"?I have heard that it contained parts of the Bible to which he was receptive and excluded other things.I am not interested in proving Jeffeson was a Baptist. I am only refering to his appeal to a Creator to bulster his concept of a good governement with people with rights endowed upon them from a higher, indeed the highest authority. Point out to me another book which starts out taking as few words to describe to us ALL of these things:1.) The origin of matter, space, time and the universe.2.) The origin of animals.3.) The origin of man.4.) The origin of the institution of marriage.5.) The origin of man's problems with God.6.) The purpose for man's creation.7.) The first murder.8.) The origin of musicians.9.) The origin of agriculture.10.) The origin or industry.11.) The early spread of humans over the face of the earth.12.) The first family.13.) The origin of human government.14.) The origin of death.15.) The first human city.What other book uses as many initial words to cover this many vital topics as Genesis chapters 1 through let us say 11 or so ?Remember, I want a book which covers ALL of these topics in as few words. I do not mean one or two of these topics. I do not mean all of them scattered in many different writings.The inclusion of so many foundamentally important issues to human life in the first several thousand words of Genesis is ONE of the things which persuades me that it is a Divine Book. [qs]Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Of course as per your usual MO, no refutation of my facts is posted.It is factual that the NT allows for no enforcement of Christianity upon anyone so the popes and bishops of the inquisitions were not practicing Biblical Christianity. They were practicing paganism, statues/idols, violence and all under the cloak of Christianity.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Buz, you can claim they were not Christians, and I'm sure you believe this to be the case, but the fact remains they WERE Christians, no matter how much you don't want them to be. They used the bible to justify their actions, the same you're doing today.

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I hunt for the truth

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No but yes seems to be your answer below

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Except that it isn't. It would take a certain amount of attention to detail to understand what why you said is wrong. I'll be impressed if you take the time and make the effort to find out.

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Jefferson supplies legitimacy to his concept of human govenrment by refering to an ultimate Governor - a Creator. That is a God. Sorry.

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Your concept of god is that he is a creator. That doesn't mean that everyone's concept of a creator is one of a god. Logical fallacy.

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The poster implied that owe God nothing for the existence of Human GOvernement. Thomas Jeffeson would not agree with him.

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Nothing that you have said would prove that.

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Whether Jefferson believed in Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, the Christian God, or a Deist God makes no difference. It is a an ultimate Governor a creating final authority as the basis of the legitimacy of human government in this case.

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No, that's your flawed spin on what Jefferson said.

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Well, you apparently didn't read about the 50th year of Jubilee ordained in the Old Testament. Every 50 years, depts were forgiven, slaves were released, property was returned.

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First of all, the quote you're responding to was Jefferson's, not mine. Second, the release of slaves every 50 years is hardly the mark of divinity.

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Why did he have a Bible then? Why did he have something called "Jefferson's Bible"?

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He had a lot of books, including a Koran. The fact that he had a bible says absolutely noting about whether he thought it divine. In fact, considering that the Jefferson Bible was a series of excerpts from the bible, leaving out the considerable portions that he thought were either nonsense or not the word of Jesus, the strongest conclusion we can come to is that Jefferson significant portions of the bible were not accurate or worth keeping.Give up on Jefferson, he offers your ilk no port whatsoever.{ABE}

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The inclusion of so many foundamentally important issues to human life in the first several thousand words of Genesis is ONE of the things which persuades me that it is a Divine Book.

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Curious that the mere inclusion of those things, completely regardless of the accuracy of what it says about those things, makes such an impression on you. The mark of a true zealot.Edited by subbie, : As noted

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I find no big difficulty in making moral judgments. And I don't have to give the answer: "because He told me to...".There are two rather different sources:1) I live in a society of social animals. It is very obvious to me that his confers innumerable benefits to me. For this society to work I have to do my part. Basically this comes down to; do unto others as you would have then do unto you. It is interesting that this suggestion is present in one form or another in dozens of distinct societies. It seems I'm not the only one who understands this is a good basis upon which to build a mutually beneficial society.In addition, I understand that our society can not stand totally unrestricted behavior of those who might not be so cooperative.2) The other reason I make moral judgments and behave as I do is that it just plain feels good when I do. I don't know how much of this is nature and how much is nurture. I am only intellectually curious about why I feel like this. But I do get a deep, good feeling out of what I consider "right" behavior which is, sometimes, totally altruistic.This is the basis upon which I build my moral code, part rational and part not so rational.From this basis I am prepared to judge other behaviors. And I judge the behavior of you God-thingy to be abhorrent because I would judge such behavior in a human as being so.

#1 Who is justifying Stalin's ethnic cleansing program (I assume that is what you are refering to in your first statement)? I listed that among the atrocities asking where was your god when it occurred.#2 You are tacitly implying from your statements that all "anti-biblical" i.e. pagan cultures slaughter their own citizens and eat their neighbors and sacrifice their children in fires which is clearly untrue. You provide absolutely no evidence for any of these assertions.#3 You blatantly disregard evidence from your own scripture which indicates that Israel committed many similar types of atrocities as well. The same committing of atrocities is also true in the rule of the Holy Roman Empire and other Christian theocratic governments as well as during United States history, many times even by its own leaders. Yet the majority of those who persecuted the Jews in Europe where themselves Christians. Pogroms ("riots") against the Jews were led by many prominent Christian leaders and governments throughout European history. Martin Luther, the leader of the protestant movement himself, was a vehement anti-Semite as seen by his writings such as "The Jews and their Lies" in which he advocates forcibly removing Jews, burning their synagogues and killing them. In fact Adolph Hitler praised Luther's anti-Semitic beliefs and used it build his anti-Semitic policies against the Jews.Many Christians through history including the Roman Catholic Church, Martin Luther, and other Protestant leaders caused more harm to fellow Christians and Jews than anyone else. How about the Christian conquistadors and missionaries who contributed to enslavement and murder of more than 90% (10-20 million) of the American Native population? Or Christian slave holders and prominent Christian leaders who used the Bible to defend their right to hold African American slaves?As much, if not more atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity and God than by most of the squabbling between and among what you consider "anti-Biblical" societies. You are right as far as the modern Muslim society's (though some Muslims civilizations further back in history seemed to be more tolerant of other cultures and religious beliefs) intolerance of Christian proselytizing. In no way do I justify any type of terrorism and bigotry by any religion or ethnic group. However like I said earlier bigotry and ethnocide has been practiced by Christians as well. As far as Hinduism, the recent persecution of Christians in India seems to be a backlash against pressures to change their culture and religious beliefs on their home turf by Christians. Christians and Hindus are both guilty of atrocities in India (I linked these in a previous post if you want to look). Many Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims (as well as many other religions) have lost homes, property, family members and their own lives in the name of Christianity. Buddhism is a religion not a culture. There are American Buddhists, Indian Buddhists, British Buddhists, etc. Burma is a country whose culture is influenced by Buddhism however, its culture is influenced by many other things as well. Also, the country is run by a military regime not a religious one. Tibet is part of China so the Christian persecution is caused by the communist government of China not by any Buddhist leaders (i.e. it's official leader in hiding, the Dalai Lama, a Buddhist, embraces all religions and is a pacifist). Buddhists priests and monks are not allowed to harm other human beings. The most violent things that they are allowed to do are to march and peacibly protest. Again according to Buddha's teachings (and other Buddhist leaders such as the Dalai Lama)if you deliberately harm other human beings than you are not practicing true Buddhism. You really don't understand history very well do you? Vietnam is under communist control not Buddhist! The Christian pastor was executed by communist not Buddhist police. The Vietnames Communist government tollerates Buddhism but the government is secular not Buddhist.To show a balanced perspective, here is a link of all the persecution against Buddhists: Persecution of Buddhists.Here is one for Muslims: Persecution of Muslimsand I can go on and on with just about every religious and ethnic group that existed on this planet.Again, Christianity as well as almost every other ethnic and religious group in human history have been on the receiving and sending end of the spectrum of intolerance, bigotry and persecution. Unfortunately until we can learn to accept our differences and get rid of our bigotry this will be a never ending cycle of hate and discontent.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

What about Martin Luther, the leader of the protestant reformation? Was he a Christian?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Relative to the topic, whoever defies Biblical Christian principles has nothing to do with this topic of Biblical divinity, be it pope, bishop or whoever. You can't argue against Biblical divinity by citing non-Biblical (abe: practices/religions claiming to be Biblically Christian). Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

God knows. He opposed oppression and advocated freedom of religion. Some of his peasant followers became embroiled in violence which he opposed, advocating for obedience to authority as long as freedom of religion was not denied.Luther had his faults but by and large he accomplished much for the advancement of the gospel of the NT and religious freedom.ABE: Jesus prophesied that his little religion would become a massive worldwide religion before the end of the age. Martin Luther's role in fulfillment of this prophecy was significant in that he was instrumental in initiating the freedom to advance the gospel. As well, his German translation of the Bible worked to this end. Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I wave the BS flag. Here is some of the violent and murderous ranting Martin Luther said not just against Jews but against his own countryman: Opposed oppression and advocated freedom of religion my ass. He was a bigot and murder. He even admits it himself. Nice role model Buzzsaw. Can you provide one ounce of truth to this? One shred of evidence? That is the understatement of the century! He single handedly provided the ammunition Hitler used to anniahlate nearly 6 million Jews as seen here: and

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Here's what Jefferson wrote: When Jefferson wrote these words:"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."Do you think this "God" refered to is the same as the Creator in the Declaration of Independence ?I didn't ask you if you think he means Christianity's God. I know he had critical things to say about Christianity. So did A.W. Tozer, G.H. Pember, and other Christian teachers and scholars.I ask you if you think that this God (with an altar) and the Creator of his statement in the Declaration are the same entity?Seems that Jefferson is refering to some grand Moral Law. Then I would ask who is the law giver for this transcendent moral law. Who is the Legislator?Was Thomas Jefferson "Anti God"?http://www.geocities.com/graymada/CB/findingGod.html

Which nation beside Israel under the Levitical Priesthood has such a custom ?I didn't offer it as proof of divinity but of evidence. And I offered it in response to your quote of Jefferson to the effect that where there are priests there will be no freedom.You can dull its uniqueness by listing the other nations which have such a practice. I see a record of him encouraging someone to study the Bible. Could you show me a quote of him encouraging someone to study the Koran ?You refered to me as a "zealot". But I do so admire an easy going tolerant person who has a "live and let live attitude". I think it is good to let people simply choose their own way and not impose your "good news" on them.Very tolerant of you. Then again I guess it could also be that you just don't have anything worth telling anyone.

I'd say that a secular judge or any society that condemns the entire family of a lawbreaker to be stoned to death is as opposite to the teachings of Jesus as one can easily be. That's as opposite to any civilized morality as you can get, and yet it's the Holy Fucking Thing to do in your barbaric Old Testament. I spit upon such so-called "love." I just marvel at myself that I didn't utterly reject the whole book when I was old enough to understand it - say, at the age of twelve - instead of hanging on into my forties.

Oooo - potty mouth !A foul mouth really strengthens your point greatly. How forceful.I know some elementary school boy's restrooms where you could scribble your arguments on walls of the toilet stales.You could get some discussion going. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

D A, I have to agree that some of the utterances of Luther raise questions as to his Christianity. Before I posted I read where the peasants were at war with the state and that Luther took the side of the state in this uprising by the peasants. I don't know enough about the particulars on this but I agree that the quotes relative to the peasants and the Jews appear totally contrary to Christian principles. As to his Christianity I'll leave that judgment with God.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.