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Author Topic:   Adding information to the genome.
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 232 of 280 (535653)
11-17-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Percy
11-16-2009 8:12 AM


Re: I call!
Kimura never uses the term "junk DNA." He instead says "functionally less important."
What would you say constitues the vast majority of "functionally less important" DNA?

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Percy, posted 11-16-2009 8:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Percy, posted 11-17-2009 7:41 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 234 by Percy, posted 11-17-2009 8:00 AM Kaichos Man has replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 240 of 280 (538607)
12-08-2009 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Percy
11-17-2009 8:00 AM


Re: I call!
What Kimura said that was controversial at the time was that evolution in functionally less important regions of DNA, termed genetic drift, was a significant contributor to evolution at the phenotypic level, and he demonstrated this mathematically.
I assume you mean "genotypic level". This he demonstrated mathematically. With regard to the phenotypic level, he limited himself to speculation:
"I think that even at the phenotypic level,
there must be many changes that are so nearly neutral that
random drift plays a significant role, particularly with respect
to "quantitative characters.""
Where you've gone completely wrong about Kimura is in claiming that he denied a role for natural selection.
He did, in the generation of variation:
"(2) There
is a sudden increase or boom of neutral variations under
relaxed selection. In this stage, gene duplication in addition
to point mutation must play a very important role in producing
genetic variations. Needless to say, their fate is largely
determined by random drift.
Notice that Kimura saw "relaxed selection" as a prerequisite for the generation of variation. Once variation had been achieved through point mutation of duplicate genes, he saw renewed selection as the arbiter of adaptive value.

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Percy, posted 11-17-2009 8:00 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Kaichos Man, posted 12-08-2009 7:41 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 12-08-2009 8:17 AM Kaichos Man has replied
 Message 248 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2009 9:04 PM Kaichos Man has replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 241 of 280 (538608)
12-08-2009 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Kaichos Man
12-08-2009 7:35 AM


Re: I call!
Just to return to the OP, I assume there are people on this forum that would concede that somewhere along the line, evolution must have created a new gene.
Anyone care to suggest how that might happen?

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Kaichos Man, posted 12-08-2009 7:35 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 12-08-2009 8:23 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 244 by Wounded King, posted 12-08-2009 8:23 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 246 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-08-2009 10:57 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 252 of 280 (538691)
12-09-2009 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Percy
12-08-2009 8:17 AM


Re: I call!
I will assume you did mean "genotypic level" in Message 234.
Drift is random without regard to the environment and cannot produce adaptation to that environment outside of sheer luck.
Which is why Kimura said this:
"I have proposed ``Survival of the Luckiest'' as a phrase that best characterizes my Neutral Theory. (Kimura, 1990a)
and this:
"I think chance plays a much greater part in evolution, and natural selection a lesser part, than biologists supposed a few years ago."(BBC documentary transcript)
And as we've told you over and over and over, natural selection doesn't generate variation.
No it doesn't. No careful, credible, step-by-step, dawkins-weasel-style building of variation through natural selection. Kimura understood that that was impossible. Selection needs something to select, and that had to be generated by a stochastic process. Duplicate genes cobbled into something useful by drift alone. Pure chance. The hopeful monster.
Kimura clearly feared illogicality more than improbability.

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 12-08-2009 8:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 8:44 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 254 of 280 (538693)
12-09-2009 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by RAZD
12-08-2009 9:04 PM


Re: no
Notice that Kimura saw "relaxed selection" as a prerequisite for the generation of variation.
No. He. Did. Not.
"What I want to emphasize is that relaxation of natural selection is the prerequisite for new evolutionary progress."Kimura 1991
and:
"(i) A population is liberated from the preexisting selective constraint. (ii) Thereis a sudden increase or boom of neutral variations under relaxed selection."
Emphasis. Added.

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2009 9:04 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Wounded King, posted 12-09-2009 8:11 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 257 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 8:51 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2009 7:48 PM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 278 of 280 (644026)
12-14-2011 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Wounded King
12-14-2011 6:55 AM


Re: More of the same from another thread
Wounded king, Subfunctionalized Monarch, I cannot let you get away from this. I'm sick to death of pulling out quotes and farting around with HTML tags, so I will put this simple proposition to you:
Given that one is simply the physical expression of the other, it is logically impossible that the genotype and the phenotype evolve by different processes.
If you don't believe this is true, please provide an illustrative example of how this might happen- remembering that a selective evolution of the phenotype immediately becomes a selective evolution of the genotype.
P.S. Characterising an advocate of an opposing viewpoint as a "troll" is cheap at best and paranoid at worst- but let's not get sidetracked. Answer the question.

"When man loses God, he does not believe in nothing. He believes in anything" G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Wounded King, posted 12-14-2011 6:55 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 12-14-2011 8:53 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 280 by Wounded King, posted 12-14-2011 8:57 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
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