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Author Topic:   WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 245 (548784)
03-01-2010 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rahvin
03-01-2010 11:31 AM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Rahvin writes:

To identify this as some sort of purge to create a religion-free society is grossly dishonest, as it paints atheism as the cause when any honest glance at history shows that atheism itslef was a means to an end in this case, while actual religious purges are themselves the sought after end.

Grossly dishonest? Why then did it become necessary to smuggle Bibles into the nation at the peril of imprisonment, torture and/or death?

Like China, they had a few state licensed show churches which were allowed only what the state mandated. The purpose of these were solely propaganda.

Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Rahvin, posted 03-01-2010 11:31 AM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Taz, posted 03-01-2010 7:38 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 03-01-2010 9:16 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1608 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 32 of 245 (548785)
03-01-2010 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 7:35 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Buzsaw writes:

Grossly dishonest? Why then did it become necessary to smuggle Bibles into the nation at the peril of imprisonment, torture and/or death?


The same reason that you and your ilk have been accusing Obama of being a secret muslim agent in hopes of rallying the masses against him.

The Chinese communists have succeeded in creating a religion of their own. And like you, they don't like competitions. You know... sort of like how you people keep trying to get the schools to lead prayers to jesus christ, amen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 7:35 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 8:34 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 245 (548787)
03-01-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Taz
03-01-2010 7:38 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Taz writes:

The Chinese communists have succeeded in creating a religion of their own. And like you, they don't like competitions. You know... sort of like how you people keep trying to get the schools to lead prayers to jesus christ, amen.

Again, you distort my position. I have not tried getting schools to lead prayers. I have advocated that local elected officials make a determination on that.

What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools. You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools. You want the kiddies to be totally indoctrinated into your stuff.

You people say that Stalin's only purpose in torture and holocaust was to eliminate anything opposing his agend. Well, guess what? That's exactly what you people want; anything that counters your agenda/ideology outlawed.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Taz, posted 03-01-2010 7:38 PM Taz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2010 9:11 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 39 by Apothecus, posted 03-01-2010 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 41 by DC85, posted 03-01-2010 10:04 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 245 (548791)
03-01-2010 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coyote
03-01-2010 12:10 AM


Re: Poor Babes
Coyote writes:

Buz, what you don't seem to realize is that no matter now many folks vote your way the constitution forbids you to impost a theocracy, or any of your pet religious beliefs, on the rest of us.
Check out the Lemon test. The actions of government must have a secular purpose.

The Constitution has to do with what Congress can and cannot do. I can't impost anything. (Imo, establish is a better word) It appears that you want that governments establish athiestic and secular humanist values upon the rest of us. That, in fact is what is happening via the majority established gub'ment. In that sense, More idiots are running the gub'ment,

Coyote writes:

We are products of the Enlightenment, and we've left the Dark Ages behind. (Of course, the shamans will sneak back in any crack, given half a chance.)

Shamans? Say what? Pray tell when the Shamans were any kind of a significant threat. The Dark Ages pertained particularly to the global influence of the ruthless popes and bishops of the RCC. Our founders had that very much in mind relative to how they worded the Constitution and Bill of Rights. They exercised religion in and out of government establishing nothing all the while. As new reps came, the majority became more secularist minded and the republic hummed along nicely and efficiently, adjusting to the will of the majority. You people should appreciate that. But no, you people won't be satisfied until your secularistic humanism is established firmly and permanenly, outlawing all others just as Mr. Stallin et al advocated.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 03-01-2010 12:10 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2010 9:23 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Coyote, posted 03-01-2010 9:44 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 35 of 245 (548792)
03-01-2010 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
02-28-2010 9:07 PM


Re: Poor Babes
My big heart BLEEDS for helpless crybabies who's looser agenda hasn't enough public support to elect representatives who will do their bidding.

Quite so. In Illinois, the Democrats have a 37:22 majority in the Senate and a 68:48 majority in the House. And yet helpless crybabies are still stamping their little feet and screaming that if this democratically elected body protects the civil rights of gay people, then this will constitute "fascism".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 02-28-2010 9:07 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 36 of 245 (548793)
03-01-2010 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Again, you distort my position.

Something that you would never do ...

What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools. You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools. You want the kiddies to be totally indoctrinated into your stuff.

You people say that Stalin's only purpose in torture and holocaust was to eliminate anything opposing his agend. Well, guess what? That's exactly what you people want; anything that counters your agenda/ideology outlawed.

... oh, wait.

---

I'm not sure what would be more disgusting --- if you know that the gibberish you spout is a lie, or if you've been driven so insane with hatred that you actually believe it.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 8:34 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 37 of 245 (548795)
03-01-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 7:35 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Grossly dishonest? Why then did it become necessary to smuggle Bibles into the nation at the peril of imprisonment, torture and/or death?

Like China, they had a few state licensed show churches which were allowed only what the state mandated. The purpose of these were solely propaganda.

Yes, Buz, grossly dishonest, although even Hyro's typical mindless middle habits pale in comparison to the complete red herring you're posting now.

I never said China was a "good place."

I simply said that it;s grossly dishonest for Hyro to say that:

quote:
As for how many atrocities have been committed under the pretense of some religion, it pales in comparison to the numbers murdered by despots seeking a religion-free utopian society in the last 100 years alone.

Hyro was being extremely inaccurate, both in saying that the atrocities committed by "atheist regimes" outnumber those committed in the name of religion, and by gross distortion in saying that the atrocities that were committed by those regimes were done to favor atheism or out of some atheistic mandate.

Your words, Buz, of course have nothing whatsoever to do with any of that.

Saying "Oh yeah?! China is guilty of human rights abuses, including the repression of the freedom of religion!" doesn't in any way change the facts I stated above. it does nothing to further Hyro's accuracies.

In short Buz, you posted a red herring.

And then:

What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools. You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools. You want the kiddies to be totally indoctrinated into your stuff.

BULLSHIT, you dihonest lying waste of bandwidth.

The law does not ban religious exercise in schools - it only bans school-led and publicly-funded religious exercise. that means kids CAN pray in school, but the teachers can't lead them in prayer. The two are very different. Your child can pray to Yahweh in school personally without fear of a teacher leading your child in a prayer to Allah or Visnu or Quetzalcoatl or being told that Yahweh does not exist.

Public schools do not in any way say that God(s) does not exist. Public schools are required to simply say nothing about religion, so that (what a concept) parents and the children themselves can decide what religious beliefs they should or should not have, rather than those beliefs being dictated or even suggested by the state.

We've told you this so many times, Buz, that I'm straight-up calling you a liar. You are bearing false witness. You are making a false statement that you know to be false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 7:35 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 11:40 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 44 by Taz, posted 03-01-2010 11:48 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 38 of 245 (548796)
03-01-2010 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 9:06 PM


Re: Poor Babes
The Constitution has to do with what Congress can and cannot do. I can't impost anything. (Imo, establish is a better word) It appears that you want that governments establish athiestic and secular humanist values upon the rest of us. That, in fact is what is happening via the majority established gub'ment.

If you really believe that that is what is happening, "via the majority established gub'ment", then I know a guy who has words of little comfort to you. His name's Buzsaw, and he has this to say about those who don't like the will of the majority:

My big heart BLEEDS for helpless crybabies who's looser agenda hasn't enough public support to elect representatives who will do their bidding.

If you find this a little harsh, you should take it up with this Buzsaw fella, I'm just passing the message on. My opinions on religious liberty and the constitutional limits on government are well-known, so if you ever want to side with me against this Buzsaw chap against this imaginary imposition of atheistic values, I'm on your side, since I support the Constitutional guarantee of liberty of conscience and am not much keen on imaginary stuff.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 9:06 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 727 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 39 of 245 (548797)
03-01-2010 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Hey Buz.

Again, you distort my position. I have not tried getting schools to lead prayers. I have advocated that local elected officials make a determination on that.

How can you accuse someone of "distorting your position" when it takes absolutely no talent for reading between the lines to see the obviousness of your position? Of course (presumably) you haven't personally, actively tried to get prayers in school. Of course you've advocated that the local officials make this determination.

Of course you'd attempt to vote those with these views into office.

And, of course you'd advocate state-sponsored prayer in schools, US Constitution be damned...

You'd have this be, but are content to see it occur through the democratic process, no? Is this not your position?

If it is, then you're splitting hairs, Buz. It's disingenuous at best to claim your position is distorted when any child can see the falsity in the assertion.

What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools. You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools. You want the kiddies to be totally indoctrinated into your stuff.

Public school is not for theology, Buz. That's what church, sunday school, and private religious acadamies are for. Leave it there.

You people say that Stalin's only purpose in torture and holocaust was to eliminate anything opposing his agend. Well, guess what? That's exactly what you people want; anything that counters your agenda/ideology outlawed.

Wrong again, oh great conspiracy theorist. Can a kid pray in school? You bet. It just cannot be state sponsored, as so many posts on this forum have explained to you, Buz.

What is it about you and your ultra-conservative ilk which makes it so hard for you to understand the reasons behind the separation of church and state? Many, many people of all religions (as well as atheism) understand why it exists in this country, and why it works so well, so to exactly which "agenda/ideology" are you referring?


"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 8:34 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 40 of 245 (548800)
03-01-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 9:06 PM


Re: Poor Babes
Shamans? Say what? Pray tell when the Shamans were any kind of a significant threat.

When I use the term I refer to peddlers of religion of all stripes, not just those in primitive societies.

It appears that you want that governments establish athiestic and secular humanist values upon the rest of us.

Secular is the base position, the default, when it comes to government! They can't legitimately teach your religious beliefs or anyone else's. Nor, by extension, can schools.

And no, the secular is not a religion no matter how often that lie is told.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 9:06 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 41 of 245 (548801)
03-01-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools.
We Support a secular position

No one is trying to ban children or teachers from praying in school HOWEVER The teacher who is a government employee is NOT to lead the prayer. why is that such an issue for you?

You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools.

atheistic and secular is an oxymoron. Most atheists support a secular position however. A secular System protects everyone's freedom

You people say that Stalin's only purpose in torture and holocaust was to eliminate anything opposing his agend. Well, guess what? That's exactly what you people want; anything that counters your agenda/ideology outlawed.

Wow you're undereducated... Holocaust was Christian doing not Communist or atheist

Edited by DC85, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 8:34 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 11:57 PM DC85 has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 245 (548811)
03-01-2010 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
03-01-2010 9:16 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Rahvin writes:

Yes, Buz, grossly dishonest, although even Hyro's typical mindless middle habits pale in comparison to the complete red herring you're posting now.

I never said China was a "good place."

I simply said that it;s grossly dishonest for Hyro to say that:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for how many atrocities have been committed under the pretense of some religion, it pales in comparison to the numbers murdered by despots seeking a religion-free utopian society in the last 100 years alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hyro was being extremely inaccurate, both in saying that the atrocities committed by "atheist regimes" outnumber those committed in the name of religion, and by gross distortion in saying that the atrocities that were committed by those regimes were done to favor atheism or out of some atheistic mandate.

Your words, Buz, of course have nothing whatsoever to do with any of that.
Saying "Oh yeah?! China is guilty of human rights abuses, including the repression of the freedom of religion!" doesn't in any way change the facts I stated above. it does nothing to further Hyro's accuracies.

In short Buz, you posted a red herring.
And then:

What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools. You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools. You want the kiddies to be totally indoctrinated into your stuff.

BULLSHIT, you dihonest lying waste of bandwidth.
The law does not ban religious exercise in schools - it only bans school-led and publicly-funded religious exercise. that means kids CAN pray in school, but the teachers can't lead them in prayer. The two are very different. Your child can pray to Yahweh in school personally without fear of a teacher leading your child in a prayer to Allah or Visnu or Quetzalcoatl or being told that Yahweh does not exist.

Public schools do not in any way say that God(s) does not exist. Public schools are required to simply say nothing about religion, so that (what a concept) parents and the children themselves can decide what religious beliefs they should or should not have, rather than those beliefs being dictated or even suggested by the state.
We've told you this so many times, Buz, that I'm straight-up calling you a liar. You are bearing false witness. You are making a false statement that you know to be false.

Grossly dishonest? Why then did it become necessary to smuggle Bibles into the nation at the peril of imprisonment, torture and/or death?Like China, they had a few state licensed show churches which were allowed only what the state mandated. The purpose of these were solely propaganda.

Yes, Buz, grossly dishonest, although even Hyro's typical mindless middle habits pale in comparison to the complete red herring you're posting now.
I never said China was a "good place."
I simply said that it;s grossly dishonest for Hyro to say that:
quote:
As for how many atrocities have been committed under the pretense of some religion, it pales in comparison to the numbers murdered by despots seeking a religion-free utopian society in the last 100 years alone.

Hyro was being extremely inaccurate, both in saying that the atrocities committed by "atheist regimes" outnumber those committed in the name of religion, and by gross distortion in saying that the atrocities that were committed by those regimes were done to favor atheism or out of some atheistic mandate.
Your words, Buz, of course have nothing whatsoever to do with any of that.
Saying "Oh yeah?! China is guilty of human rights abuses, including the repression of the freedom of religion!" doesn't in any way change the facts I stated above. it does nothing to further Hyro's accuracies.
In short Buz, you posted a red herring.
And then:
What you want Taz is for gub'ment to continue the establishment of athiestic secularism into the schools and ban any religious exercisement in the schools. You people want to eliminate the republic so as to get your athiestic and secularist agenda exclusive in schools. You want the kiddies to be totally indoctrinated into your stuff.

BULLSHIT, you dihonest lying waste of bandwidth.
The law does not ban religious exercise in schools - it only bans school-led and publicly-funded religious exercise. that means kids CAN pray in school, but the teachers can't lead them in prayer. The two are very different. Your child can pray to Yahweh in school personally without fear of a teacher leading your child in a prayer to Allah or Visnu or Quetzalcoatl or being told that Yahweh does not exist.
Public schools do not in any way say that God(s) does not exist. Public schools are required to simply say nothing about religion, so that (what a concept) parents and the children themselves can decide what religious beliefs they should or should not have, rather than those beliefs being dictated or even suggested by the state.
We've told you this so many times, Buz, that I'm straight-up calling you a liar. You are bearing false witness. You are making a false statement that you know to be false.

No red herring at all. Hyro was grossly accurate in stating that many more have been killed by despots seeking a religion free utopia. I repeat; if he was grossly inaccurate, why should prison, torture and death be the penalty for smuggling Bibles into despotic nations of the Communist block nations of the last century. I'll tell you why. Hyro was right on. It was because these despots wanted a religion free utopia. Over a hundred million (largly Christians) were slaughtered by their own governments last century. Pray tell, what century topped that for religious persecution and slaughter of non-believers?

Now we'll talk about your red herring, Rahvin. My point was that the athiestic/secular humanist agenda/ideiology is mandated in public school teaching while religious agena/ideology is not allowed taught. No, they don't deny religion perse. They simply deny the teaching of anything religious such as the Biblical record, etc. It's all got to be secularist. This was not the case in over a century of our republic, until the sheeple elected reps who became restrictive as to what was taught. That's fine. It's a republic. It's just that you crybabies who are getting pretty much your way incessantly want more than what the elected reps have given you. As soon as some state or county loosens up an intsy tad on religion, you people screem and holler like spoiled brats who don't always get their way.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 03-01-2010 9:16 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 03-01-2010 11:47 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 45 by Taz, posted 03-01-2010 11:51 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 46 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-01-2010 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2010 11:57 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 49 by bluescat48, posted 03-02-2010 12:00 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1988
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 43 of 245 (548812)
03-01-2010 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 11:40 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
They simply deny the teaching of anything religious such as the Biblical record, etc.

Why should they do something that is against the constitution? Why do you hate America?


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 11:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1608 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 245 (548813)
03-01-2010 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
03-01-2010 9:16 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Rahvin writes:

We've told you this so many times, Buz, that I'm straight-up calling you a liar. You are bearing false witness. You are making a false statement that you know to be false


You just realized this now? I've been calling him out on it for months now. Personally, I'm still going back and forth between lying and senility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 03-01-2010 9:16 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1608 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 45 of 245 (548815)
03-01-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
03-01-2010 11:40 PM


Re: Communist Religious Persecution
Buzsaw writes:

Hyro was grossly accurate in stating that many more have been killed by despots seeking a religion free utopia.


No, he wasn't. He has the understanding of history as a 10 year old, an over-simplistic view of historical events. Frankly, that's an insult to those of us who are passionate about studying real history to ensure that we don't repeat it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 03-01-2010 11:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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