Marxism

Evidently reality and facts have no affect on your viewpoint. MY father has a saying for people like you.
"Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."Lets look at Horowitz objectively. I don't give a rats ass about where he came from or the Black Pantehrs or any of that. Because it does not matter in the context of his current behaviour.Fact.

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In his ad (which he continues to defend), Horowitz makes essentially four points in his attack on the demand for reparations:

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First, Horowitz claims that Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African-Americans, not the white European traders and the system behind them that benefited vastly from the ferocious exploitation of African slaves.

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And Horowitz says that the claim that all African-Americans suffer from the economic consequences of slavery and discrimination is unsubstantiated. He even claims that, in spite of a tremendous amount of documentation, No scientific attempt has been made to prove that living individuals have been adversely affected by a slave system that was ended nearly 150 years ago.

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Horowitz also claims that the demand for reparations sends a damaging message and promotes a renewed sense of grievance when the real problem is that Blacks can’t seem to locate the ladder of opportunity.

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And finally, Horowitz’s ad claims that Reparations to African-Americans have already been paid in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences for Black people.

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For all this, Horowitz claims that African-Americans owe a debt to America. And he demands where’s the gratitude for all this!

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Indeed, Horowitz has actively promoted the views of avowed racialists on his FrontpageMag. In November 2000, Horowitz published an article by James Lublinskus, a former editor of the white nationalist movement's flagship publication, American Renaissance. And Horowitz has repeatedly promoted American Renaissance founder Jared Taylor, who openly and forcefully argues that blacks and Latinos are genetically inferior to whites...
In his tirade against me, Horowitz actually defended Taylor for heroically highlighting the "racial crimes committed by blacks during Hurricane Katrina that somehow didn't become part of the discussion of racism during the Katrina flap." He went on to lament that, "In the national discussion of Katrina, Bush was accused of racism for failing to be on site immediately in New Orleans but actual racial crimes committed by blacks were rendered invisible." But which "actual racial crimes" was he referring to? Horowitz doesn't say.

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In the piece, Horowitz tried to defend his claim that "free blacks and the free descendants of blacks benefited from slavery.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I am still waiting for a reply on a number of things but I listed the most important here Message 113.Here they are again.1) You have claimed that Marxism is now part of the US government.
Please explain how and give an example.
2) You keep railing on Marxism, but as of yet have not shown that you understand what Marxism is.Please give your definition of Marxism
3)You claim that "Marxists" are doing indoctrination in schools. Please show evidence of this.
4)You have claimed that the wealthy pay a ridiculously high percentage of their incomes in income tax.
Do you understand how the US tax system works? Do you understand the difference between average tax and marginal tax?
Do you acknowledge that taxes for the wealthiest people are among the lowest they have ever been?Any chance of a response or should I just take your silence that you acknowledge you are in correct or do not know what you are talking about?

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

US government? Well, sort of but I meant American culture in general. Obama has a Marxist background, so does Hillary Clinton and so do others in the administration. Has to do with their having had Marxist teachers and mentors. But mostly I think I was talking about the effect on society as a whole of the Cultural Marxist thinking that came to flower in the sixties. Not economic Marxism but a focused attempt to characterize western civilization as some sort of evil empire, and it's worked. You know, American imperialism, evil America. Included heavy scholarly works against "the nuclear family" as an oppressive institution, against patriarchy as an oppressive institution, and the like. Big role in all the liberations, including "gay rights" and the idea of gay marriage. We needed some of the civil rights, we didn't need th Marxist spin on them, but that's what we've got.What else.If you want me to "understand" Marxism the way you understand it, forget it. I'm talking about this other brand of Marxism. It's still Marxism, it just left the economic cateogry and labeled social insttitutions as the "oppressor" and it loves to point the finger at oppressors. Can't say a damn thing around here without being called a bigot. That's the legacy of Cultural Marxism. Oh there's more but I have to leave in a bit.In the schools. Well, all these ideas had to captivate all of you somehow. Most who went through university in the last few decades got a lot of indoctrination in postmodern thinking, which also has marxist roots, again social marxism, cultural marxism, the appropriation of the cocepts to the social context, and to literature where peopel have been taught not to trust the actual text they read but the inner meaning which they get by reaidng between the lines adn finding, guess what, Marxist cateogries about class oppression. Imagine that.You may be right about the rich being able to get away awith not paying as much tax as the schedule says they should. So they give it away as I believe Hyro said, and get to write it off. They use it for charity then. Sounds good to me.I'm sure it doesn't matter one bit whether I answered this or not. You're still going to say something insulting.I have to leave now.Cheers.

Perhaps we should just drop the whole Horowitz thing. He's a political pundit, not a political figure.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Faith has presented him as an expert on Marxism. I have been trying to show that he is not a reputable source.It is not incumbent on me to accept someones inability to accept reality. If Faith can counter the sources that show he is a racist, I will back off my criticism. The argument used by Faith that there is a leftist conspiracy against Horowitz does not fly. Continuing to assert something in the face of facts against it is delusion.Faith needs to start backing up assertions with facts or just drop out of the threads altogether. I know that, but alas I fear Faith does not.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Actually, it does matter. It suggests that he is an irrational man, given to jumping into things without adequate consideration. As far as I can tell, that character flaw still continues, even as his political ideology has switched.

I agree totally. Thank you for pointing that out.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

If she is citing him as an expert, then I agree she needs to identify him as an expert if you challenge it. I don't see how his apparent racism discredits him from the ability to be an expert on marxism.Are you just finding racist quotes in an attempt to discredit him as an individual who is prone to bias, and therefore cannot be a reliable or objective source, or just as a way to smear him?

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

He has shown himself to be prone to bias. Bias is about all this guy knows. Why would I need to smear him? His actions in the past speak volumes. Classic hyro. Attack mode again huh? You constantly question peoples motives. You think you know how everyone thinks.Ok let me make this clear for you so you have no misconceptions.David Horowitz is a racist and a fearmonger. Evidence proves this. I feel it is more than proper to discount anything said by a person with such radical views as him. People like this do not tend to ahve extremist views on one thing and then moderate views on other things.His attempt to muzzle what he considers left wing professors shows his inability to be objective.These are not smears these are an objective presentation of the truth. I am not tarnishing his reputation, his own words and actions are.You want to defend that he is not a racist and extremely biased? Are you just finding racist quotes in an attempt to discredit him as an individual who is prone to bias, and therefore cannot be a reliable or objective source, or just as a way to smear him?Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Edited by Theodoric, : db

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

So let's make a list of what Faith considers to be "Marxism" in the voice of Jeff Foxworthy.You might be a Marxist if . . .1. You expect your country to act morally towards other countries.2. You think that minorities, women, and homosexuals should not be denied their rights.3. You went to college.4. You happen to have a functional and traditional family. This is a sure sign that you are against a "nucelar family".Does that about cover it?

I know it's a lost cause to say anything here, but you guys are just flapping your gums mindlessly about a man about whom you know nothing. You just make up whatever suits your prejudices. You lie when you call him a racist. You lie. You just love flinging that accusation around. What does it do for you to call people such names, give you some kind of self-righteous buzz? Slander is a terrible sin, terrible, but it seems to be the favorite occupation of some around here.One of the biggest lies, a total lie, you all tell about Horowitz is this one about how he wants to muzzle leftists. That's a really low one. What he's been doing is trying to get some fairness into academia so that CONSERVATIVES will get to have a voice which they don't have thanks to the leftist clique at most universities. He's documented that thoroughly. He wants FAIRNESS, he wants an end to the stifling of the conservative voice on college campuses. Gee, you stifle it here, you bully and slander and call names anyone who is a conservative, and we KNOW they do it in the universities. ACADEMIC FREEDOM is the name of his efforts in that direction, NOT MUZZLING ANYBODY.Liar.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You're a liar too. You all falsely call creationists and conservatives liars, I'm going to tell the truth now and call YOU a liar, where it fits.

GOD DAMN IT. I DID DOCUMENT IT. HE GREW UP IN A COMMUNIST FAMILY AND HE WROTE ABOUT IT. I LINKED THE BOOK. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE!? YOU'RE SICK SICK SICK. YOU'RE INSANE.

Maybe we could get back on topic? Marxism?

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I DIDN'T CITE HIM AS AN EXPERT ON ANYTHING BUT GROWING UP MARXIST IN AN AMERICAN COMMUNIST FAMILY AND BEING A LEADER IN THE MARXIST "REVOLUTION" OF THE SIXTIES ABOUT WHICH I HAVE FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE.