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Member (Idle past 4749 days) Posts: 176 From: Atlanta, GA, United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Underlying Philosophy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I would like to propose a topic centering on the underlying philosophy of atheism, primarily, what is an atheists fundamental starting point ... Well, there isn't necessarily a single philosophical starting point that leads to atheism. So I can only speak for myself. In my case, it's observation. Does it look like we live in a universe with a God? No, it doesn't. Therefore, I am obliged to provisionally conclude that there is no God, subject to further observation.
... and is this starting point valid? Well, obviously I think it's valid. You would have to decide that for yourself. But I would point out that if observation isn't a valid way of gaining knowledge, then there is very little that we can say about anything. For example, I think that grass is green because it looks green. If you and I were to reject observation, then on what basis would we say that it wasn't pink? Indeed, on what basis would we say that grass exists at all?
To be more specific, does the starting point for atheism account for all the abstract entities that we know are present, such as the laws of logic, morals, ethics, and other such entities. Further, how could these entities arise in a universe that is not governed by God? This is a bit like asking a disbeliever in Cupid how he accounts for the abstract entity of romantic love without an invisible baby with wings shooting invisible magic arrows into people.
And lastly, this discussion will not be fought from a neutral standpoint, for two primary reasons. 1. The Bible commands us not to. "Us"? Speak for yourself. Would you debate with a Muslim according to rules that he took from the Koran, because he says that the Koran commands "us" to follow his rules?
Neutrality is ultimately impossible. I will not go in to detail to explain why neutrality is impossible, but statement #2 rests on the fact that atheists (who claim to be neutral) are in no way neutral, and if they were neutral, they could not believe anything. I am not interested in discussing claims that you can't even be bothered to support. Nor, apparently, are you. If you're too apathetic to support your statement, or even to explain its meaning, then I regard it as worthless.
So, the basic question is: from where did abstract entities arise, and why do you believe in these entities? Abstract entities are ... abstract entities. They "arise" because we want to apply nominal clauses to things which aren't actually things in the sense that a rock or a tree or a fish are things. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
You also say that you are "not theist". Theist comes from the greek word theos, which simply means "God" or "a god". The a at the beginning of this word denotes the opposite of the word following. Simply put, atheist means "no God". Further, to say that you are simply "not theist" does not describe what you believe. If I say "I am not French" this does not give us much information about what I really am. This is the closest I have ever seen any theist come towards understanding what "atheist" means. Curiously enough, the rest of your posts strongly suggest that you don't know what "atheist" means, and indeed that you suffer from contemptible delusions about what "atheist" means. But this one paragraph suggests that you have, for just one moment, really understood what "atheist" means. Hold on to that moment of insight. Yes, it's exactly like saying that one is not French, without laying claim to any other particular nationality. You've got it. Hooray!
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
From where does the U.K. get the authority to lay out a set of morals as the law of the land, if there are, perhaps, some people in the U.K. who disagree with this set of morals? There's this thing called "democracy", you might have heard of it.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I would first point out that in my belief, I am an utterly depraved human being ... Then why the heck should anyone care what you have to say?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
You claim you have no underlying assumptions. Perhaps different atheists have different specific beliefs, but YOU make the assumption that ethics and morality are human constructs. If this isn't an underlying assumption, then I don't know what is. A discovery made by observation, like my discovery that I have two legs, based on the observation that it looks like I have two legs. I look at the history of human ideas of morality, and I see that some people think that Protestants should be burned at the stake, and some people think that Catholics should be burned at the stake, and some people think that Jews should be burned at the stake, and some people think that heliocentrists should be burned at the stake ... and you would ask me to decide that one person (you) has got hold of an objective morality that we should all believe in? Well, I'm open-minded. Perhaps you really do.
So prove it.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Evolutionists are essentially materialists who use science as a cover for their ideology. This is, of course, one of the Great Big Creationist Lies.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
You say there is evidence for natural law...and from where (once again) is this evidence derived? Once again, from observation.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
That, Dr. Adequate, is for you to decide. You can decide what you think is important, and what is not, but I will go on speaking what I believe to be the truth, and whether or not you respond to it is not left up to me, but to God. You intrigue me. You say that it is up to God whether I respond. Is it also up to God how I respond?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Indeed I have Dr. Adequate, but since when did the U.K. establish democracy as the correct way of doing things? If you were genuinely interested in British history, which you are not, then there are in fact books on the history of Britain which you could read if you really wanted to know the answer to this question, which you don't.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
And during this observation, do you invoke the use of the laws of logic to decide just what you are looking at, or do you mindlessly stare at it, with no thoughts or assumptions? Obviously I thought about the evidence. I recommend the same practice to your good self.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Does the word "thought" indicate that you used the laws of logic? Of course. How else would one think --- you tell me?
To the second remark, I will maintain my composure, and will not stoop to resorting to snide remarks to win arguments. You're a saint.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Dr. Adequate, I merely was trying to make the point that under your worldview, the U.K. has no pretence for setting up democracy as the correct way of doing things. And you are, of course, wrong.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
"Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." (Romans 6:6) If, according to this passage, you are a slave to sin, then sin affects all the choices you make, and thus, you will choose, every time, the sinful choice...that is to choose against God. However, if God works a change in you, then you are no longer a slave to sin. Was that a yes or a no? It's a yes or no question. You say that God decides whether I respond to you. Does God also decide how I respond to you? Yes or no?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sin directs your decision, as spoken of in the verse. Was that a yes or a no? It's a simple yes-or-no question. Let me repeat it. You say that it is up to God whether I respond. Is it also up to God how I respond? Yes or no? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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This time, the assumption is [...] that the evidence is supreme in defining truth ... Well of course it is. How would we find out the truth about any proposition about the real world without regard to the evidence? Without reference to the evidence, one could believe that pigs have wings, that the sky is green with purple spots, that the Moon is made of green cheese ... or even that there's an invisible magic pixie who lives in the sky and who really really hates lobsters, cotton-polyester fabrics, and people who pick up sticks on Saturdays. The only reason people ever ignore the evidence is that they want to believe daft stuff like that. You may wish to diminish the importance of evidence, but the fact is that you do accept it as "supreme" for all practical purposes --- you just ignore it when it gets in the way of your religious fantasy life. Fortunately, this is unlikely to kill you or even stub your toe. If you took the same attitude about something of real significance, such as crossing the road, you'd be dead. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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