Marxism

I keep wondering if there's an angle from which to approach this where some headway will be made, or at least some sense. I don't mind trying again.Let's see, Faith, if this better describes your beliefs:The government taxing people in order to pay for social programmes is stealing. (This is a new way of putting it: I've eliminated the words "rich" and "unwilling to pay" because it now seems that you flat-out believe that social programmes are robbing people.)People should not be destitute. But they should be helped by the charitable donations of Christians.Because this does not happen to a significant enough degree (nor would it), the government "steals" as a necessary evil. (This is a new way of putting it: does it reflect your thoughts more accurately?)I guess my problem is that you, as you said, think in absolutes. I've met others who do this. It's reassuring, it's seen as an unassailable position especially if you can say, "the Bible says so." But much, if not all, of life does not work that way. Why vilify, in your mind, a practice that helps many people and indeed ensures that the humanitarian principles of the Bible are enacted in society? By calling it "stealing," you are placing a burden of guilt on yourself as well as condemning everyone else. And it's clear you don't like it, because you attempted to put the blame on your friend. You are creating quite a swirl of negative stuff where there doesn't need to be any.I suggest a paradigm shift for you. Stop calling social welfare that truly helps people, including yourself, "stealing," and accept that it's a necessary part of reality for many people at certain points in their lives (the vast majority of whom, only use it as a temporary measure until they can get their lives back in order).

The problem is that we do not define this as stealing whereas you do. Why? Because most of us understand where our money goes and who it helps. Why would we be calling it stealing if we know where it is going. We are the ones that elect the representatives who determine where this money goes. If we don't like where this money goes than we elect someone else who represents our views. This is what is called a constitutional democratic republic government system. Is it perfect? No, but it works and has one of the best success stories of any government on the planet.The question is, regardless of what you call it, stealing, etc. Are you going to push for stoping this aid, foreign or domestic, because you think it is immoral ? And why would helping other people less fortunate than ourselves be immoral in the first place?????? Is it not stated in your own Bible that God expects us to help our neighbor aka the Golden Rule. Even the Israelites instuted a form of welfare at the command of God:

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

OK, let's amend it to "not telling the truth".I was speaking as though she was doing it deliberately, but I am coming round to the conclusion that her behavior is indeed the product of a mental defect over which she has no control.

I'm with nwr. I don't know how you can conclude liar. Perhaps you mean a troll, the type who attempts to stir things up by posting ridiculous arguments and claims on purpose?Me, I'm going for the least incredible possibility. After all her time here I don't think Faith is lying, and I don't think she's the longest-running troll act in history, so that leaves deluded and deranged.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Typo.

With welfare you *are* paying taxes for something you get, just as with the police and military. If you're involved in an accident the police will respond and provide help. If you become destitute the welfare system will respond and provide help.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

Hi Faith, let's try another viewpoint (Note: I've removed your caps and size changes as unnecessary distractions, I trust you can still read and recognize the words). Sounds reasonable. Let's see where this gets us.The government takes taxes and gives you government and government services in exchange, so the government does not take your money and give you nothing in exchange. Therefore, according to this definition, the government is not stealing.It appears that you concur: What the government decides to spend the money on, from babies to bombs, is irrelevant to the issue of stealing, because (a) you claim that (stealing)_Faith is where "someone takes your money from you and gives you nothing in exchange," and (b) you have already agreed that the government gives you something in exchange, the government takes taxes and gives you government and government services in exchange ("an operating government and a police force and a military and so on").Again, it appears that you concur, as you have also claimed: However debatable this point is (as your have defined (not-stealing)_Faith by "what the money goes for" - government services and so on - and this is the ONLY distinction you have made that I have seen), we can proceed on this basis for now, and say that (stealing)_Faith is "not defined ... by what the money goes for" and see where this takes us.If stealing is not defined by what the money goes for, then the issue of what the money goes for cannot be relevant to the question of (stealing)_Faith, and the only issue is whether you get something in exchange. Therefore that something does not need to be defined, because the only distinction between (stealing)_Faith and (not-stealing)_Faith is that you get something in exchange.And you do: the government takes taxes and gives you government and government services in exchange.Because the government does in fact give you something in exchange, you cannot call it stealing according to your definition/s: Government gives you something in return, it does not matter what that something is, just that you get something, and therefore it cannot be stealing.Does THIS help?Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : only

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Remember that Faith, perhaps uniquely amongst the disputants on this thread, is directly benefiting from welfare. Faith is on welfare. We don't need to present it to her as an abstraction --- she is living off your money. That is what she denounces as "stealing". Abstract morality doesn't come in to it, it's what she's actually doing.Your money. Her pocket.

I get some rental assistance through HUD. I'm not exactly "on welfare," some people get HUD plus welfare plus assistance with utilities. I work part time. I get a calculated portion of help with my rent based on my income. I live in a pretty cheap apartment as apartments go around here.No, I don't like it either, I don't like being in this position. I would be getting more social security if my ex and I hadn't goofed up the paper work back when I worked for him. We looked into every angle on that and there's no way I can get it unless he pays back thousands he's been receiving for years, which he can't possibly do. So all I can get from SS is based on what I earned from 1992 on, and that was some pretty low-paying jobs.As I said, a Christian friend took me in hand a few years ago and made sure I got rental assistance, saying that Christians pay for it so I shouldn't need to ask the church directly for it, which I'd been doing once or twice a year. ONLY once or twice a year I needed help from the church with my rent. Actually the rental assistance people figured I needed more than I asked for. They put me in the category of "elderly." It's true I was living without any frills, that's for sure. Well I still am but I can now afford a book once in a while. No new clothes, occasional trip to the thrift store for those, but a book I'll choose over clothes. Yes, I feel like I'm stealing. I wish I didn't have to do this.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It's funny you have to be the only person in my entire life to tell me I think with my emotions. I known as an emotionless jack ass Perhaps I'm simply being selfish because I'm smart enough to know keeping other people in the economy and productive helps stop me from also failing. If a large percentage of the population fails THEN THERE IS NO ECONOMY and I may lose my job and money. I'm sure you don't think that deep into it though. It helps keep him rich by keeping the economy moving... If the poor and middle class don't have money there is no economy. It's only those two classes that spend most of the money. so do you.... You think police and military are not "stealing" yet welfare is.

Again you are saying it can't be stealing if it goes to a good purpose. Again, the police and military are working for the country and getting paid according to their work.Never mind, I give up, I gave up a long time ago, just talking in my sleep now.

Hi Percy, To be more succinct, the tax money goes to the government and in exchange, from the government you get a program to provide welfare for disadvantaged people. So you do get something, whether you like it or not, and therefore it does not qualify as stealing.Faith can now rest easy, knowing that she is not stealing from the rest of us.Enjoy.

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You got to be fucking kidding me! You are receiving federal aid and SS and you have the fucking gaul to say that the government is stealing money from the people to give it to, get this, hypocrites like you!!You are the epitome of hypocracy Faith.I am not really suprised since my uncle, an avid listener and worshiper of Rush Loudmouth and Crazy Beck, denounces welfare and government assistance while at the same time he is a recepient of SS and other types of federal and state aid.I have just resigned myself that people like you are: Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

So... you're "stealing" from the tax payers or at least aiding in it..... if you lost this job you may get welfare plus assistance with utilities.It sounds to me you falsely believe that most people who are on these are lazy and don't want to work... When those people are far and few between. neither do 98% of the people on such programs

Social Security is something we pay into. I've been trying to make it very clear all along that some programs like SS and unemployment insurance aren't like welfare because we pay into them. Nobody listens though. Nobody cares about the actual argument being made here. You just all scream on the basis of your feelings about this or that.Yes, I do feel like a hypocrite in a way, but I'm making an honest argument even against the position I'm in. Stealing is a moral offense no matter what the law says about it, and the government is stealing when it takes money from the citizens not for any service or work it is offering but just to give to others.

And what have you paid in Faith to receive HUD subsidies? Is that not a form of welfare??

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World