Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

It is corrective surgery, though insurance providers don;t recognize it as such here in the States.Did you know that German healthcare will cover the full transition, from initial hormone therapy to the eventual reassignment surgery?Yet they don;t cover the elective removal of a limb.Why? Because one of these is indicative of a mental disorder, and the other is a person in need of medical and surgical help.The very same attitudes you and others are espousing here are why transgendered people often feel alienated even within the GLBT community.It's curious that all of you have such strong opinions regarding how "fucked up" it must be to want to have your gender reassigned, without having ever even tried to comprehend what it means for the individual in question. If you actually took the time to speak to and understand the position of a transgendered person, you might find your opinions would change.

I have to agree with them, then. What is it correcting, exactly? Nature made a female, was that incorrect?If a black kid feels as though he'll have a better chance of being employed if he changes his race, would that too be corrective surgery? Did you know Germans are into getting shit on during sex? I seen it! How do you distinguish between someone wanting to cut off an arm or someone wanting to cut off their penis, if both are requested to a medical doctor to perform surgically? I see them as mentally ill people in need of some introspective therapy. Not surgery for profit then tossed out into the street as though they were "fixed." Easy, before you start hugging all the trees again. I never said it was fucked up to feel that way. I said it was fucked up for a doctor to perform such a surgery. The person needs mental help. I would love anyone, whatever gender or post-op what have you they were. It's not about the individual. I would also defend that individual from bullying or any other form of aggression toward them, physically if I had too.My point is only that doctors should not be cutting someone up who is, in my opinion, in need of menatl help.- Oni

The gay, lesbian and bisexual people that I know want to be accepted as they are. They don't want to change.

How is it determined which is which?

Funny, the straight, asexual and amoral people I know want the same thing. But some of the transgender people I know want to change.Why shouldn't everyone get what they want? What harm does it to anyone else if someone wants gender reassignment surgery?

What harm does it do to anybody else if somebody wants to commit suicide? Yet we offer them counselling, not bullets.

One of those desires denotes a mental health problem. The other does not.I presume you can ascertain which is which.

Psychiatry. The same way we determine whether depression is a mental disorder or just a state of being. The same way that we have determined that being gay is actually not a mental disorder, even though a lot of people don't "get it."There have been many studies on transgenderism. I'll see if I can dig up some of the ones I've seen in the past.

Ever heard of Oregon, Montana or Washington?

No such distinction has been demonstrated (yet) in this thread.

If the same standard is applied to genital modifications (and I'll waive the terminal illness requrement) I have no serious objection. I'm arguing for the "sound mind" provision. I don't want people to jump for the Veg-O-Matic solution just because some do-gooders think it's de rigeur.

My understanding is that the standard is stiffer, if you'll pardon the expression. I believe surgery requires months or years of psychological therapy beforehand. Not sure about the multiple witnesses and doctors. And, IIRC, there are several months or years of hormone therapy before surgery.Nobody gets this done on a whim during a three day vacation.

Sounds reasonable. That's what I've been advocating. I don't quite understand all of the knee-jerk reactions that I've been getting.

More specifically...Typically patients are required to attend therapy during their entire transition, and are also required to have a psychiatric evaluation prior to even starting to ensure that it's a genuine case of transexuality.The patient must then live as the desired gender for a period of time, 24/7. This is before even hormone therapy. A transwoman would live as a woman, acting, dressing, identifying as a woman all day every day. She would acknowledge female pronouns and not male, would usually change her name to one more feminine, frequently she would wear makeup, etc.After a period of time and another psychiatric evaluation, hormone therapy would begin. Over the next few months, the hormones would make some of the initial physical changes, like starting/stopping the growth of facial hair, some voice changes, etc. If the patient is being treated prior to puberty, early hormone therapy can actually stave off the pubescent development of secondary sexual characteristics and make the eventual adult transition (surgery is not performed until adulthood) much easier. Note also that at this point everything is completely reversable.During this entire time the patient has continued to functionally live as their intended gender, and continues to participate in therapy.After more significant time, often years, the actual gender reassignment surgery can happen, again after more psychiatric evaluation.The process is intended to make damned sure that the patient is in fact transgender and needs to transition before performing surgery.Transgenderism is not a fickle phase a person goes through. It's a lifelong affliction. It's a cause of depression (in patients who have not yet transitioned, or who are ostracized for what they are), not caused by depression, as an example. A transwoman is for all intents and purposes that actually matter a woman, and always has been; she simply had the misfortune to be born with a medical condition that caused her body to incorrectly grow as male. Surgery and hormone therapy correct the problem.

Perhaps if you had not begun by apparently assuming it's done on a lark, or learned a bit more about it before condemning the practice, you might not have had the same reception.