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Author Topic:   Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


(2)
Message 14 of 276 (660408)
04-25-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


We can rule out genetics.
We can rule out upbringing.
We can rule out "choice".
What's left is fetal development - the process that builds a fetus from the genetic recipe - and a mutation in the progress of that development in one fetus.
I take issue with all three of your claims, and more generally reject the model under which you make them
Claim 1: Genetics.
Two issues emerge: firstly, there's the question of whether they're actually genetically identical - has this been tested? Or, as it usually the case, are they assumed to be identical based on very similar morphology? It's not uncommon for twins to misclassified as identical. Even if they're monozygotic, it is quite possible for gene mutations to occur in one twin but not the other. Secondly, if we take a broader view of genetics, it's quite possible that the epigenetics of the twins are different.
Claim 2: upbringing
Who says their upbringing was the same? Are we sure that, for example, the parents didn't pick up the differences in their play behaviour and encourage them, wanting to ensure their two sons developed different identities?
Claim 3: choice
Why can we rule out choice? Did Wyatt not choose tutus and beads? Did he not choose to demand a barbie cake? What is choice, anyway? The idea that it is only a choice if we could trivially choose differently is naive, at best.
Finally, I reject the framework underwhich you're working. Environment is wider than upbringing and the idea that the influences of genetics and environment can be separated is simply wrong. Many, probably most, genes - especially those for complex characteristics - interact with the environment is extremely varied ways. The influence of environment is only possible if the genes allow it.
In a way, all traits are 100% environmental and 100% genetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2011 11:22 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 27 by subbie, posted 04-26-2012 4:35 PM Dr Jack has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 16 of 276 (660417)
04-25-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rahvin
04-25-2012 12:49 PM


Can you remember a time you chose to like Marmite (or not like Marmite)? A time you chose to like wearing those jeans? A time you decided to like this music but not that? A time you chose to want to do your job? Did you choose to like you girlfriend/boyfriend/whoever? Did you really choose to get that cat, or did you just want one and then get one? Did you choose that want?
Choice is kinda of a difficult concept.

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 Message 15 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2012 12:49 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


(2)
Message 32 of 276 (660661)
04-28-2012 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by onifre
04-27-2012 7:30 PM


Re: Ok, I'll be that guy
Have you looked at the evidentially data collected looking at transpeople's experiences and well-being following corrective surgery?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 04-27-2012 7:30 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 11:11 AM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-28-2012 12:11 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
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