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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I was with you until this:
And even the choice to transition genders is not just a matter of preference - it's correcting a problem. Transgendered individuals don't just want boobs or a penis. They aren't crazy. It's become cliche, but they really do feel trapped in the wrong body. This is only a recent phenomenon, if you could even call it that, due to a few sick doctors fucking with what nature built and now "in the wrong body" becomes a thing that can be said. I'm a HUGE supporter of gay rights but certainly not of slicing up one's body to change their entire gender. I don't know how a doctor can ethically do that to a human being. I'm all for gays doing whatever, my record speaks for itself here in that debate. And I wouldn't tell someone they can't feel like a woman or a man if they were in the opposite body. But for a medical doctor to use their skills and knowledge to butcher someone up like that is frankly fucked up. - Oni
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3
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Have you looked at the evidentially data collected looking at transpeople's experiences and well-being following corrective surgery?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Whether a person is gay or transgender through genetics, choice, environment, or any other reason does not matter. They are the way they are, and they have just as much a right to be who and what they are as the rest of us. I think that view is extremely naive. Because our society is constructed such that it imparts harm to and discriminates against the gay and transgendered, it does indeed matter whether or not being gay or transgendered is a choice. Yes, they do have the rights you describe, but those rights are not recognized. If being gay were actually a choice, it would be quite a foolish choice to make here in North Carolina, where in all likelihood the right to marry or even to form a recognized civil union is going to be put forever beyond reach next election.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Have you looked at the evidentially data collected looking at transpeople's experiences and well-being following corrective surgery? Corrective surgery? Wow... ok. Correcting what, exactly? What are people going to say, really? They're now fucked, and forced to live with the choice they've made. I've read of there being plenty of emotional problems after the surgery requiring therapy and counciling. Let's not pretend it's all good afterwards. It should be illegal for doctors to use their skills of healing people in such an outrageous fashion. It's sick. Again, people can do whatever they want and feel like they're a woman all they want. But doctors should not butcher people simply because they requested it. There is such a thing as ethics in the medical field and I find it extremely unethical to perform such a "corrective" surgery. - Oni
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Mr Jack writes:
Corrective surgery would be something like fixing a malfunctioning heart valve. "Gender reassignment" is fakery. It doesn't make you a different gender; it just makes you look like a different gender. ... corrective surgery.... Maybe you'd like to answer the question I asked earlier: Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? My guess is that some people would feel better after having their race "corrected".
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Maybe you'd like to answer the question I asked earlier: Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? My guess is that some people would feel better after having their race "corrected". We saw how well it turned out for Michael Jackson. - Oni
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It doesn't make you a different gender; it just makes you look like a different gender. What's the difference, exactly? Aside from the birth configuration of their genitals, what's the practical difference between a transwoman and a woman with XY syndrome? My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
What's the difference between a soldier who loses a leg to an IED and a man who wants to have a healthy leg amputated because it "feels wrong"? Aside from the birth configuration of their genitals, what's the practical difference between a transwoman and a woman with XY syndrome? Choice.
crashfrog writes:
I can't speak for Oni but I've aways been an advocate of unisex bathrooms. My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something. Edited by ringo, : "unsex" --> "unisex"
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Choice. So what?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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crashfrog writes:
So what what? If you have a point to make, make it. Choice.
So what? My position has been that a person should be able to live in society without having to slice-and-dice him/herself to conform to a stereotype. What's the difference between amputating an unwanted healthy leg and amputating unwanted healthy genitals? Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? Edited by ringo, : Speling.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something. I have no hang ups when it comes to sexuality. I could careless. I'm just calling into question the ethical aspect of performing such a surgery one a human being simply because they feel like a different gender. That's not a doctors job, in my opinion. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
My position has been that a person should be able to live in society without having to slice-and-dice him/herself to conform to a stereotype. Oh, I agree. But what about the people who want their bodies to be modified in a certain way? Choice, you said. I think people making their own choices is pretty important.
What's the difference between amputating an unwanted healthy leg and amputating unwanted healthy genitals? Nothing. I'm completely OK with people amputating unwanted legs, healthy or otherwise, assuming that it's their choice. How else are you supposed to attach the prosthesis?
Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? Sounds perfectly fine. It's completely legal. What, precisely, am I supposed to object to?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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I'm just calling into question the ethical aspect of performing such a surgery one a human being simply because they feel like a different gender. That's not a doctors job, in my opinion. I don't see the difference between that and someone who feels that their boobs are too small or their dick is too big. Americans spend billions on elective surgeries. Saving lives aren't the only things doctors do.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I don't see the difference between that and someone who feels that their boobs are too small or their dick is too big. Yes you do. There is a huge difference between a girl getting bigger tits and going through a sex change operation.
Americans spend billions on elective surgeries. Eledtive surgery? I thought it was corrective surgery?
Saving lives aren't the only things doctors do. Unfortunately it's also used to satisfy an increasingly shallow societies dream look. Soon all black girls will be blonde girls and all short guys tall. Then we'll be perfect, and happy. - Oni
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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crashfrog writes:
When somebody makes a choice that is regarded as harmful - e.g. suicide - most societies respond with counselling rather than laissez-faire.
I'm completely OK with people amputating unwanted legs, healthy or otherwise, assuming that it's their choice.
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