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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It doesn't make you a different gender; it just makes you look like a different gender. What's the difference, exactly? Aside from the birth configuration of their genitals, what's the practical difference between a transwoman and a woman with XY syndrome? My sense is that you and Oni are a little too hung up on bathrooms, or something.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Choice. So what?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
My position has been that a person should be able to live in society without having to slice-and-dice him/herself to conform to a stereotype. Oh, I agree. But what about the people who want their bodies to be modified in a certain way? Choice, you said. I think people making their own choices is pretty important.
What's the difference between amputating an unwanted healthy leg and amputating unwanted healthy genitals? Nothing. I'm completely OK with people amputating unwanted legs, healthy or otherwise, assuming that it's their choice. How else are you supposed to attach the prosthesis?
Where do you stand on race reassignment surgery? Sounds perfectly fine. It's completely legal. What, precisely, am I supposed to object to?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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I'm just calling into question the ethical aspect of performing such a surgery one a human being simply because they feel like a different gender. That's not a doctors job, in my opinion. I don't see the difference between that and someone who feels that their boobs are too small or their dick is too big. Americans spend billions on elective surgeries. Saving lives aren't the only things doctors do.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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There is a huge difference between a girl getting bigger tits and going through a sex change operation. By degree, I suppose, but you leave unstated what the exact difference actually is. So I, you know, don't believe you.
Eledtive surgery? I thought it was corrective surgery? If it's justifiable as an elective, then it's certainly justifiable as a corrective. And if it is corrective, as you're now willing to admit, then there's absolutely no reason to deny someone the surgery.
Soon all black girls will be blonde girls and all short guys tall. Maybe. It's really easy for normal people to tell others that you have to play the hand you're dealt. While you're at it, you should throw away your contact lenses and celebrate the natural diversity in visual acuity, don't you think? Who cares if it means you can't drive or read?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
When somebody makes a choice that is regarded as harmful - e.g. suicide - most societies respond with counselling rather than laissez-faire. And yet the phony assertion that a choice is somehow "harmful" - without any argument put forward in support - is frequently used to deny people choice. There's a greater burden of evidence for arguing that someone's choice is "harmful" than just mere assertion of harm.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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As much as we tolerate the masquerade, accept the masquerade, understand the masquerade, etc. we don't pretend that the masquerade is not a masquerade. But what if it's not, in fact, any sort of masquerade? Being a man or being a woman is a performative act anyway; I don't see any reason why we have to limit the performance to those born with a certain configuration of genitals.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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But again, gender is a performance anyway. Acting like a man is being a man.
There's every bit as much reason to be suspect of your gender claim, whatever it may be, as there is of a transsexual's. They're equally performative.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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That attitude is the problem. Objectively, it's your attitude that is the problem, since of our two attitudes, you're the one who appropriates the right to tell other people what surgeries they can have, regardless of the degree of reflection and assent from the medical community they may have achieved.
How you act is how you act and what you are is what you are - and ne'er the twain should have to meet. That's exactly, precisely wrong. Stupidly so. What you are and how you act are the same thing. It's surprising to have to tell an adult that.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Some people believe that GLBT people can be fixed, even if you have to use a Jesus stick to beat it out of them. What's sick is that this is true. As well as the reverse - with the proper application of abuse, I could get you to swear off titties and love cocks for, like, the rest of your life. The reason not to do this is not that it is ineffective to brainwash someone out of their nominal sexuality, but because it's incredibly corrosive to human dignity and personal sovereignty to sweepingly second-guess the decisions adults make for themselves after deep reflection.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Is this for real? Flat-out for real. Funny to have to tell a cop this. Isn't someone who does criminal acts, by definition, a criminal? Or do you believe that someone just is a criminal, and the crimes follow naturally from that essence? Gender essentialism is just as stupid as species essentialism, or for that matter, any other form of essentialism. What is this, 1850?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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I dunno about that... wouldn't that mean that this guy is black: Why? Is he acting like a black person? I don't see it - I just see a guy acting like a douche. And guess what, he's a douche! Seems like it proves my point.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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But the definition of a male/female is not "a person that does masculine/feminine things". That's exactly what it is. Gender is performative, its a set of traits that you evince; you are a certain gender because you perform a certain gender. You might be thinking of sex, which refers to the specific configuration of your genitals.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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I've ben saying that if people are tolerated, accepted and understood as they are And that's what you're being asked for - to understand and accept that a woman is a woman, regardless of the birth configuration of her genitals. And that's specifically what you're rejecting. So pardon us if we find your invocation of "tolerance" somewhat hollow, since, in your case, it comes along with all the intolerant bullshit you've been spouting.
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